1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Are the New Hampshire Confession & BFM Calvinistic?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Humble Disciple, Jun 30, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 3 of 3
  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,557
    Likes Received:
    2,889
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I asked you this also:

    Were they 'apostates', or Christians that let their greed/insecurities lead them wrong?
     
    #41 kyredneck, Jul 2, 2021
  2. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,371
    Likes Received:
    2,405
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In my mind, the writers of the NHC sought to reflect the shift to the Fullerite position as opposed to the Gillite.
     
    #42 Squire Robertsson, Jul 2, 2021
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,557
    Likes Received:
    2,889
    Faith:
    Baptist
    IMO, that would jibe with @Squire Robertsson last post #42.
     
    #43 kyredneck, Jul 2, 2021
  4. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,371
    Likes Received:
    2,405
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, both John Gill and Andrew Fuller considered themselves Particular Baptists.
     
    #44 Squire Robertsson, Jul 2, 2021
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,557
    Likes Received:
    2,889
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh I'm aware of that. My point is Fullerism was a 'step away', a toning down, from the High Calivism John Gill was wrongly accused of:

    "...Just as Fuller strove to make the Baptists respectable and clean them of what he called the dunghill of High Calvinism, so his modern fans are presenting him as their only hope in making Christianity a rational religion which even fallen man can comprehend and follow faithfully. We are thus seeing one formally Calvinistic church after the other, followed by their magazines and newsletters, proclaiming a ‘modified Calvinism’ which claims that the old doctrines are too high, or even hyper, and that an inner knowledge of the truth is as common as the offer of salvation is universal...."
    Why I am not a Follower of Andrew Fuller « Biographia Evangelica
     
    #45 kyredneck, Jul 2, 2021
  6. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,371
    Likes Received:
    2,405
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And I disagree with your quote. As I'm taking my position from Francis Wayland.
     
    #46 Squire Robertsson, Jul 2, 2021
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Some saw Gill as being a hyper cal though
     
    #47 Yeshua1, Jul 2, 2021
  8. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm sorry if you've already explained this, but what was the difference between their two positions?
     
    #48 Humble Disciple, Jul 2, 2021
  9. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    First, Humble Disciple, welcome to the Baptist Board. I hope you find it beneficial.
    Yes, the history of the SBC's BFM shows it is a modification of the New Hampshire Confession. The New Hampshire Confession probably technically should be considered a child of the Philadelphia Confession, since it was most commonly used by American churches. However, the Philadelphia Confession is just a reissuing of the 1689 London with a couple of added chapters.
    Yes, the New Hampshire Confession should be considered Calvinistic. However, it is also important to understand that it deliberately modifies many of the plainer statements of the 1742 Philadelphia/1689 London Confessions. Many churches and associations in our area adopted the New Hampshire Confession, and I don't think they particularly considered themselves Calvinists.

    I'm not a Southern Baptist and have never carefully considered the BFM, but it appears Southern Baptists who are Calvinists do not see it as contradicting their beliefs.
     
    #49 rlvaughn, Jul 3, 2021
  10. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    [​IMG]
     
    #50 Humble Disciple, Jul 4, 2021
  11. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I've read the New Hampshire Confession and the BFM, and they both appear to be broad enough that they could be accepted by a Calvinist who believes in unconditional election or an Arminian who believes in conditional election. This broadness isn't necessarily a bad thing.
     
    #51 Humble Disciple, Jul 4, 2021
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Calvinists see that the sinner still must receive jesus as Lord to receive salvation purchased for them by the death of God, while Gill and Hyper held to eternal justification, even if not receiving Jesus as Lord here, will still be secured and saved in Christ!
     
    #52 Yeshua1, Jul 12, 2021
  13. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Historical Baptist confessions matter because otherwise, people will believe whatever new thing comes along.

    Leighton Flowers insists that John 6:37-40 and John 15:16 apply to the original apostles only, while the New Hampshire Confession clearly says otherwise.

    Dr. Flowers is able to get away with this because of how ignorant many Baptists are of their own history. It's shameless how Flowers characterizes his own position as "traditionalism," while ignoring Baptist history.

    Without the New Hampshire Confession, there would be no BFM. Without the 1689 London Baptist Confession, there would be no New Hampshire Confession. Reformed Baptists have been in the SBC from the beginning.

    It's like he's a used car salesman, a smooth talker with a handsome face who doesn't really have much substantive to say. 2 Corinthians 11:14, John 7:24, 1 Corinthians 8:2-3
     
    #53 Humble Disciple, Jul 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  14. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I still consider the New Hampshire Confession of faith to be the gold standard of Baptist confessions.

    The confession, whether intentionally or unintentionally, was worded in such a way as to be acceptable to Calvinists, Arminians, and even Molinists:

    As long as you are an Arminian or Molinist who also believes in eternal security, you can also accept this part of the confession, as well as its equivalent in the BFM:

     
    #54 Humble Disciple, Aug 1, 2021
  15. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Since I am still able to affirm the New Hampshire Confession of faith, one can see that my beliefs have not substantially changed. It's just a matter of whether God's election, based on the text of scripture, is conditional or unconditional:
    Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized
     
    #55 Humble Disciple, Aug 2, 2021
  16. Humble Disciple

    Humble Disciple Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I've read the 1689 London Baptist Confession several times and I still, for the most part, agree with it. I just now believe that our election is conditional, rather than unconditional.

    Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized

    Conditional election - Wikipedia

    Jacobus Arminius was himself from the Reformed tradition, and classical Arminianism is traditionally called Reformed Arminianism for this reason.

     
    #56 Humble Disciple, Aug 3, 2021
Page 3 of 3
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...