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Are the preservation verses clear?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by try hard, Nov 4, 2002.

  1. try hard

    try hard New Member

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    God is fully capable of preserving His words perfectly. I do not question that. I question whether He chose to do so. I believe He chose to preserve His words, but not through some supernatural process. God did preserve His word for us. We have thosands of copies of the Word of God. The comparison: 98% to 99% places are the same. That is huge. However, it is obvious that God did not "perfectly preserve" His word. And it is obvious that scripture does not teach that.

    I do not question the existence of God. I know He lives, because He lives within my heart. [​IMG]

    Let's discuss Psalm 119

    Psalm 119:89

    This verse declares that God’s word is forever settled in heaven. The following verses indicate the point of this verse, that God’s word is infallible. His ordinances are true and will never fail. The stability of the universe is the evidence of this.(verse 90-91). This passage of scripture says nothing about God perfectly preserving the written words in the scripture.

    If this verse did teach that, it would only mean that the text is perfectly preserved in heaven, which is no help to who argue for the kjv, TR, or Majority text.
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    There is no verse, try hard. No matter the rants and raves of those wishing it so, no where does God say the AV is the only inspired translation of His Word. And if it were purified and perfect, HOW DARE ANYONE change one spelling, one punctuation, one word of the Apocrypha.

    Nor is there a verse that says the NIV is the perfect Word of God. Or any other translation.

    God's Word is perfect. Translations are, well, translations. As they accurately translate into a receptor language the Word of God, they, too, are inspired and perfect.

    All of them. Wonderful verses about God keeping His Word. Not a single verse - not one verse - that refers to or even implies a single translation in 1611 as being kept.

    Dr. Bob Griffin
    LVO (Latin Vulgate Only) [​IMG]
     
  3. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    quote:
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    Originally posted by av1611jim:
    Why? Oh why must you folks constantly attack the validity of God's pure words? I ask a simple question? How can one set of words IN ENGLISH be God's pure words and another set of opposite words IN ENGLISH also be His pure words?
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    Who has attacked the validity of God's pure words?

    quote:
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    Has God's exact words been preserved? Yes. Are they in English? Yes, and in Spanish and in Danish and in Russian, and in Greek and in Ethiopian, etc. The fact that Russian is different than English doesn't mean a thing to the God Who has GIVEN us language in the first place. ( See Genesis 11) The words in English may be different than the words in Russian, BUT they are still the words of God.
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    So you now admit that different sets of words can still be the same word of God. This is what we have always said and it is what the biblical doctrine of inspiration supports.

    quote:
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    For those of you who would now ask," Where does it say that in the Bible?"...I reply, don't be obtuse. You KNOW it is not there per se, but you also KNOW it is there IN PRINCIPLE,
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So you now admit that your doctrine is not found in the Bible, but rather has been added to the Bible. That is why we disagree with you. For those of us who hold only to the Bible as our final authority, we cannot tolerate the addition of doctrine.

    Pastor Larry:
    How very dishonest of you. You have taken each of my comments out of context and replied to them in such a way as to make your comments SEEM truthful.
    It is obvious to anyone who can read that you either chose not to reply to the point of each comment or that you rather chose to ignore the point. For example, your comment that I admit that a different set of words can still be God's word, completely ignores the point I was making that the different LANGUAGES will have different words for the same thing but in ENGLISH those words which are opposite of each other CANNOT BOTH be God's word. Of course I do not expect you to see the difference. You are sold on the idea that as language changes we NEED God's words to change with it. But by making such an assertion you ignore my point that it is utterly dishonest to think or propose that our English language has changed so much in this century as to NEED revising and updating every TEN years. And I assure you I am being gracious with my estimate of ten years. These last 25 years has seen such a rapid influx of NEW AND IMPROVED Bibles that one's head is set to spinning. Again you ignored my other comment. Do you honestly, with a straight face expect me to believe the English language has changed THAT much?
    And I have one more question for you. WHICH Bible is God's word? Perfectly preserved and infallible? Which one? Which one of the over 200 since 1881? (By the way, you know perfectly well why I chose 1881) You say there are none that are perfectly preserved? Then tell me sir; How do you KNOW you are saved? I know I'm saved because the OKJB TELLS me so and it is written by my God who cannot lie nor allow His words to be lost. Tell me, you say the Bible is the final rule of faith and practice? Which one? Do you stand on ANY Bible at all? ( He who will not stand for something will fall for anything.) For goodness sake sir, at least show some integrity and STAND on one! I will not fault you for making a choice. But do not expect me to find any validity in your claim, "thus saith the Word of God" if you cannot or will not show me WHICH one it is!
    And by the way, please do not put words in my mouth. I did not say the doctrine was ADDED to the Bible. I said it was there IN PRINCIPLE. The same way as ABORTION is not addressed specifically but is there in principle. Are you not able to see the difference? Forgive me if this sounds like a personal attack. No doubt some will assume it is such. I assure you it is not. All I want is some integrity from BOTH sides of this issue. Misquotes and innuendos are not it.
    I will hold my OKJB up in the air and say," This IS God's pure words." Can you do the same with your Bible? Will you? If not, then how do you expect some lost sinner to listen to you when you say, "You must be born again."?
    It is sad that the fellow soldiers in the foxhole are aiming their "Swords" at each other and saying in effect," MY sword is real but yours is not". Shame. Why not rather say,"I believe my Sword is given to me from God Himself and I will use it for His Glory." God don't make no junk as it is said. So sir; STAND on something. And I must add, don't even play the Greek and Hebrew card in this deal. We are talking English. And I assume you are PREACHING to English speaking folks are you not?
    AV1611Jim
     
  4. ChristianCynic

    ChristianCynic <img src=/cc2.jpg>

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  5. wjrighter

    wjrighter New Member

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    tryhard;
    2TIM3:16,17 -i guess whatever translation you read this in; it pretty well says
    GOD said it & i believe that!
     
  6. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    [​IMG] CC you are funny. Perhaps your moniker should be "Cristian Comic"?
    AV1611Jim
     
  7. try hard

    try hard New Member

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    Which is what I believe the whole perfect preservation thing does! [​IMG]

    Do you know what the real funny thing is though...you quote from the 1982 revision of the king james version.

    LOL
     
  8. try hard

    try hard New Member

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    God did not say it. He never said he would perfectly preserve and these verses don't say that either. Let's take a look at them:

    II Timothy 3:16
    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

    I looked up the greek word for scripture.
    Scripture:
    1. a writing, thing written
    2. the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
    3. a certain portion or section of the Holy Scripture.
    4. The av 1611 king james bible.(added [​IMG] )

    This verse says exactly what it says. Absolutely nothing about the perfect preservation of scripture. So no, God did not say it.
     
  9. wjrighter

    wjrighter New Member

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    well???? i guess i just believe god when he says things like his word will not return void;people say the bible is a living thing (excuse thing lack of brains this am.) soooo...
    ck.this out jn.1:1; 1cor.13:10-11; isa.60:19 jer.31:34 hab.2:14 hope this helps. bill
     
  10. try hard

    try hard New Member

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    Here are those verses:

    John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    I Cor. 13:10-11 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought F51 as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

    Isaiah 60:19 "The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory."

    Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. "

    Habakkuk 2:4 "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. "

    :( Disappointed I am. :( None of these verses talk about perfect preservation. What's your point?
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I think I took your comments for what they said. Perhaps you meant something different than the words you chose communicated. If you meant something different, than I apologize. I did not choose to ignore anything. The vast majority of your post centered around the comments I made.

    As every generation of believers in church history has. The English language is significantly different in meaning and structure. Anyone who can read knows that. I am not justifying all the new translations. Many of them are bad and many are unnecessary. However, I believe that the language of the KJV is not the language that we speak today. I believe God wants his word in the language that people speak. Therefore, I use a translation that is in the language that I speak and the language that my congregation and neighbhorhood speaks.

    Any translation that accurately translates the original language texts is the infallible word of God. That has been the orthodox position of bibliology for 2000 years of church history. It is only in the last 40 years or so that this new doctrine has arisen. The position I hold is the one that the KJV translators held. It is in fact what gave the KJV translators liberty to make a new translation.

    As does the NASB, the NIV, the NKJV, and a host of other good translations. The message of salvation is found in any faithful translation.

    [/qb}Yes. I stand on the Bible as God delivered it and as translators through church history have translated it. This is really a straw man. Any faithful translation is the word of God, just as the KJV translators said. You fail to understand the reality of the issues involved in this discussion.
    You admitted there is no verse that identifies the KJV version as the word of God. In fact, every verse that you use to support your position is in the NASB, NIV, NKJV, etc. It in reality supports my position not yours. As for abortion, I believe the Bible does directly address it. It says, You shall not murder. That is not "in principle;" that is direct. I can see the difference. I am not sure that you have wrestled through the issues here.

    Absolutely without question.

    I have not said your sword is not real. To the contrary, I have affirmed that the KJV is indeed the word of God. It is you who are indicted by your own statement. It is you who has turned to a fellow soldier and said his sword is not real. It is you who has maligned the word of God. It is a shame. But don't blame me for it.
     
  12. try hard

    try hard New Member

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    Matthew 5:18: read in light of it’s context.

    Verse 17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”

    Verse 18 “For verily, I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

    What is Jesus talking about in verse 18? I think it is obvious.

    Notice the way Jesus contrasted “destroy” with “fulfill”. He said that every “jot or tittle” of the OT law would be fulfilled before the heaven and earth passed away. He came to fulfill all prophesied about Him in it.

    The passage is not talking about the continual preservation, through written copies, of the exact words in the originals. It is declaring that all of the OT prophecies about Him would be fulfilled by Jesus, down to the smallest detail.

    Matthew 5:18 doesn’t even refer to the new testament, let alone speak of its perfect preservation.
     
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