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are there different kinds of calvinists?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by nodak, May 26, 2008.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Can't you think of a new lie SP? How many times must you keep saying blatantly false things? I must have told you dozens of times that any true believer of Christ is elect -- whether Calvinist, or not.
    Hey, I have a suggestion for you ( aside from listening to old Rogers sermons) tell the truth once in a while about Calvinists. How bout' that?
     
  2. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    Turns out Arminius was a 3 point calvinist his points of conflict were I believe free will and election. Anyhow much of calvinism is biblical and most folks are calvinists of one type or another.
    Most folks who call themselves calvinists are referring to the tulip acrostic and not to the Institutes of Religion written by Calvin. So they are not actually calvinists at all but tulips.:laugh:
     
    #22 Plain Old Bill, May 30, 2008
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  3. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    drfuss: I have gone over all the posts and have not seen the following resentments about Calvinists. Calvinists use terms that imply a misrepresentation of what others believe. For example:

    Doctrines of Grace - All Christians believe in the doctrine of grace. By calling Calvinism "The Doctrines of Grace", the Calvinists imply a misrepresentation of what others believe, by suggesting that others don't believe in God's grace. This arrogance on the part of Calvinists is naturally resented and shows a lack of consideration for other Christians.

    Sovereignty of God - All Christians believe that God is completely sovereign. Yet, many Calvinists say that Calvinists believe God is more sovereign than what Non-Calvinists believe. Again, Calvinists misrepresent what others believe.

    Faith - Some Calvinists indicate that accepting Christ as Savior is an act of man's work. They continue that anyone who believes accepting Christ as Savior is necessary for salvation, is depending on man's work for salvation. Again a gross misrepresentation of what Non-Calvinists believe.

    Etc.

    Is it any wonder that others consider Calvinists arrogant, aggressive and inconsiderate?
     
  4. Bob Farnaby

    Bob Farnaby Active Member
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    So does that make them the flower of christianity?....

    I agree Bill, personally I feel a great hesitancy to call myself a Calvanist, not because i have any problems with the 'five points' stuff, but because of the issues of baptism, church government, church/state relationships. With these three i find myself way different to Calvin. Shows the importance of going back to the scripture and seeking to see and understand what it says.

    Regards
    Bob
     
  5. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    No, go wider POB. A Calvinist is more comprehensive in their theology than just the 5 responses to Arminian error.
     
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    For the 1,000th time. Being a Calvinist does not mean following John Calvin.Aren't you the least bit familiar with Church History? Spurgeon,Boyce,Dagg,Carey,Gill, Keach and scores more of just preachers/authors were Calvinists though Baptists as well. There need not be any contradiction.
     
  7. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    Nope, they are all the same. None of them will listen and they think they know everything... :BangHead: :BangHead:
     
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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  9. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    2 good books to read, "Why I am not a Calvinist" and"why I am not an Arminian". This could round out our thinking a little.
     
  10. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    drfuss: From the OP:

    "I have had very little experience with calvinists. The calvinists I have known in real life (very few) were extremely bombastic, argumentative, domineering, fundamentalistic, holier than thou, and very very unloving. All pointed to knowing they were saved by their good works, rather than by their faith.

    From that I assumed their attitudes, beliefs, and actions were reflective of calvinism itself."


    drfuss: Doctrines of Grace - All Christians believe in the doctrine of grace. By calling Calvinism "The Doctrines of Grace", the Calvinists imply a misrepresentation of what others believe, by suggesting that others don't believe in God's grace. This arrogance on the part of Calvinists is naturally resented and shows a lack of consideration for other Christians.

    Rippon: This has been dealt with a lot before. The term "Doctrines of Grace" has been with us for centuries. It has been another momenclature for Calvinists -- those who hold to the doctrine(s) of grace. There are 10's of thousands of websites which use the term referring to Calvinists. You've got your work cut out for you if you want to stop the usage of the term.
    And specifically the Doctrines of Grace have an approach to Scripture with which non-Cals would object.You, as a non-Cal maintain you believe in grace, but the way you define it is distinctly different than the way a Calvinist understands it.


    drfuss: Sovereignty of God - All Christians believe that God is completely sovereign. Yet, many Calvinists say that Calvinists believe God is more sovereign than what Non-Calvinists believe. Again, Calvinists misrepresent what others believe.

    Rip: No, many non-Cals give the sovereignty of God lip-service only. They sometimes even outline what they consider the areas of his sovereignty, and where He does not exercise His sovereignty. They even maintain "man's sovereignty"!!So, on the issue of God's sovereignty many Christians do deny openly are by implication His full sovereignty. How many would agree with the perspective of AWP's book "The Sovereignty of God" for instance?"Aw, Pink goes too far", many non-Cals say.In other words God is not THAT sovereign?


    drfuss: The OP indicated attitude problems with Calvinists and questioned if their atitudes were reflective of Calvinism itself. You just showed that the bad misrepresentations by Calvinists are reflective of Calvinism itself, and it has been that way for years.

    I was not trying to be difficult, just answering the OP's question about the nature of Calvinism. Thanks for demonstrating my answer so well.

    I realize that the Calvinists will not change their misleading terms: it seems to have been that way from the beginning. I suspect that most Calvinists don't realize how they come across when using these standardized misleading terms.

    Peace.
     
  11. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    AMEN to that... Perhaps you can toss in a free copy of, "Why I Proclaim Solely to be Christian"...
     
  12. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    This ongoing problem between Calvinists and Non-Cals are fleshly. You guys are "in the flesh" yet. Both of you are carnal. Corinthians. And even worse, you try to portray one another as either inferior or arrogant.

    On a lighter note, you remind me of a joke circulating among Filipinos back when the Muslim insurgency was at its strongest and body bags were being brought home by the gross every day on both sides.

    A reporter asked a Muslim fighter when peace could finally be restored. The fighter replied "when the army surrenders".
     
  13. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    double post.
     
    #33 pinoybaptist, Jun 1, 2008
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  14. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Well, I don't see Cavlinists claiming that Muslims, Bhuddists, atheists, etc. are saved so I'm betting you would agree that "most" are not saved, right?

    Mostly Calvinists will 1) claim to be edu-ma-cated in the deeper things of the Bible, not by studying or knowing them, but by understanding Calvinism. If they just tried to be better "steards of the mysteries of God" and not Calvinism, they'd be better off.

    2) Then, on top of that, they constantly claim that others don't understand Calvinism, "doctrines of Grace," etc. (less edu-ma-cated :laugh:) is why they don't know the Bible and God. Well, I understand the "Wonderful One Hoss Shea" and I understand the Bible --- and there's not many points of convergence.

    There is IMO a sore need for Calvinists 1) to understand the triunity of the nature of man (Body, soul, spirit) especially as it applies to sotierology but also to sanctification; 2) to understand the parables and mysteries of God; 3) to understand dispensationalism, the covenants of God, and eschatology rightly dividing the word

    One place where Calvinism has it PATENTLY wrong is in sotierology where they deem the OT saints to have been saved by being "regenerated" as well!.

    To me, they carry on totally oblivious to some of the most important issues in scripture! It's almost like filling up your "college schedule" (life here on earth) with ELECTIVES and avoiding the core courses they need to make an "eternal career!" I mean, in my view, Calvinism is basically "cocktail" information whose main thrust is "Why bother? We can't do anything to effect God's sovereign 'program' anyway. Que sera, sera."

    skypair
     
  15. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    As with anything, there is academic, theoretical Calvinism and practical Calvinism. Example: Academic Calvinism says that we are elect from eternity past but practical Calvinism admits there is no way to know one is "elect" until one is saved.

    As you can tell by this simple example, there is a HUGE disconnect between theoretical Calvinism and real life Calvinism. In fact, in real life there is almost no practical use for theoretical Calvinism unless you are trying to make the church the political "state."


    skypair
     
  16. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    It's called "CalvinISM" for a reason, rip. And it's no more deceitful than Paul saying that "some say they are followers of Cephas, some of Apollos, some of Christ." If Paul had his way, none of those "spinoffs" of Christianity would be "denominated. "

    But Paul apparently isn't going to get his way when it comes to Calvinists, is he? They're clearly very proud of how they have divided the church in that they keep that title "out there" for all to see.

    I sincerely enjoy discussing our different perspectives of each individual issue. We all have our strengths and weaknesses in our "knowledge and faith of the Son of God." (Eph 4:13) But at some point I believe we all have to abandon "pet theories" of we'll never in this life "come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."

    skypair
     
    #36 skypair, Jun 1, 2008
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  17. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    You mean as in "let me cast the mote out of YOUR eye for YOU?" :laugh:

    I believe one angle that we have not addressed that may bring "closure" is the fact that God in 3 Persons operates differently than any of us have considered when giving our views of "God's this" and "God's that."

    I'll sketch out a thread and see what develops. :godisgood:

    skypair
     
  18. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    I don't follow you. Are you saying that non-calvinists do believe that Muslims, Bhuddists, atheists, etc. are saved? If not, and if that must mean there are more people unsaved than saved, then there is no difference on this point between calvinists and non-calvinists.

    That "claim" is clearly your view, but I have yet to see any difference on the BB. There are some on both "sides" who come across as seeming to claim to know better than others.

    I cannot speak for others, but as far as I am concerned, I only say that someone does not understand "Calvinism, "doctrines of Grace," etc." if that person makes statements about it that are wrong, just as you would if I misrepresented your beliefs. If my posts have ever come across in such an arrogant way, please forgive me. By the way, who is "Hoss Shea"? I'm assuming it is a way of writing the name "Jesus", but a Google search for the term brought up just 2 sites, one referring to "The wonderful many-hoss Shea", and the other to "Shea Roebuck (Hoss)Shea Roebuck, a Hampton Roads native, is excited to make his acting debut with the Virginia Stage Company." :)
    Why calvinists? Granted, there are probably more calvinists than non calvinists who believe in the dichotomy of man than the trichotomy, or triunity, but what about understanding the parables and mysteries of God, and eschatology? There is (as I think I have said before) a variety of belief among non-calvinists on these things, too. By no means all non-calvinists are dispensationalists, for instance.
    You seem to have that wrong as far as all the many calvinists I have met are concerned, but I am at a loss to know how to put your false impression right - I have tried, many times, to tell you that we don't believe all the things you say we do. I am just glad, immensly glad, that (whatever our differences) we both know the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour, and trust in His completed work on Calvary, praise His wonderful name!
     
  19. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    #39 skypair, Jun 2, 2008
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  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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