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Are there good and evil forms of music?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Aaron, Jun 27, 2002.

  1. Matticus

    Matticus New Member

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    Originally posted by Brother Adam:
    "There can be only one reason for their exclusion. Their sounds were earthly, appealing to the sensual appetites in those who heard them, and, therefore, not acceptable in the worship of Jehovah"

    Pure opinion and personal bias. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    Bro. Adam
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Maybe. Maybe not. Could you offer an alternate explanation?

    Certain instruments being included or not included is not necessarily because those instruments are either good or bad. Not everyone plays every instrument. Perhaps it is a listing of the instruments that THEY use. Not those that we should use, just those that they had lying around. The inclusion or leaving out of some instruments does not prove your point.

    God Bless
    Matt
     
  2. Matticus

    Matticus New Member

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    This means that there is not always a one-to-one correspondence between the instruments mentioned here and our modern versions. However, there is some similarity in many of them.

    Again, the early church used none. Zip, Zero, Zilch. My purpose was to show that the Scriptures draw a line.

    I do not see this so-called-line. Certain instruments are used because they are convenient. In the new testament, instruments were not used because it was inconvenient to use them. It is hard to play an instrument if you're in jail and u don't have one. Also, the apostles were fishermen and other such things, not musicians. There is a logical explanation for them not using instruments.

    God Bless
    Matt
     
  3. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Matt, I've got to give you an "A" for at least offering an alternate explanation.
     
  4. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    That wasn't an alternate explanation, it's the default explanation until someone can prove otherwise.
     
  5. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    What color socks did you wear this morning? Let's say you chose to wear black? Does that mean that you can't stand blue socks? Maybe, maybe not. But because you choose not to wear blue socks today doesn't mean you don't like them. Just because a particular instrument isn't used at a particular point in the Bible for a particular reason, doesn't make it evil. Remember that a great deal of Jesus' acts were not recorded in the Bible. Does that make them evil? No.

    Bro. Adam
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Music is not neutral, neither are its instruments. They can be used for good or evil. Consider what is written here in the fourteenth chapter of 1Corinthians, in the context of the gifts of the Spirit.

    7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
    8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
    9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

    When an orchestra plays every instrument gives a "distinct sound," whether flute or harp, or whatever the instrument may be, every one of them has a distinct sound. That is what Paul is saying here. But if one instrument is out of sync, (say the violin), then the whole will sound terrible. The conductor will notice that right away. So will a lot of other people. For the piece that is being played to be understood properly, every instrument must give its distinct and proper sound, otherwise the piece of music being played will be meaningless, or the message ruined.

    In rock music every instrument has a distinct sound, just like the orchestra. You can identify the instruments. The one big difference in most rock music, is that the message is blurred. You cannot here or understand the message because of the music, or its loudness. What does it profit if it cannot be understood. That was Paul's point here. His emphasis was on understanding.

    In his second illustration he uses a trumpet, which he says must also give a distinct sound. In the military a trumpet is used for many purposes: to call the troops for war, to sound a retreat, to tell them to advance, a reveille, a wake-up call, meal-time call, etc. The trumpet has many functions. It has a distinct sound for each one. I don't know how to play the trumpet. You would not want me as your bugler or trumpeter. What you would get would be noise, not music; confusion, not order; chaos, not understanding. The troops need someone that they can gain understanding from. They need someone who can clearly sound the trumpet with distinct sounds, without confusion, that they may understand the command given.

    My son has had years of education and experience with the piano. He plays well beautiful hymns such as Amazing Grace, or It is Well With My Soul, or At the Cross, At the Cross. He can also play a wide variety of classical music. But if he wanted to he could use the piano to play rock. I sit at my computer not too far away from the piano. When he plays the great hymns of the faith my soul is uplifted and edified. If he were to play rock, I would get a headache. What's the difference? Music is a medium through which a message is communicated, for good or bad. Even the classical music would be relaxing to me. But not the rock. The instrument can be used for good or evil. David could have used his instrument in the same way. He skillfully used it to soothe the spirit of Saul, and drive the evil spirit away. Rock music would not do that. It sends a message of confusion and rebellion. It is my opinion that rock was born out of rebellion. How then can this genre of music be used for the glory of God, even if Christian words are attached to it?
    DHK
     
  7. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    Main Entry: in·stru·ment
    Pronunciation: 'in(t)-str&-m&nt
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Latin instrumentum, from instruere to arrange, instruct
    Date: 14th century
    1 : a device used to produce music
    2 a : a means whereby something is achieved, performed, or furthered b : one used by another as a means or aid : DUPE, TOOL
    3 : IMPLEMENT; especially : one designed for precision work
    4 : a formal legal document (as a deed, bond, or agreement)
    5 a : a measuring device for determining the present value of a quantity under observation b : an electrical or mechanical device used in navigating an airplane; especially : such a device used as the sole means of navigating
    synonym see IMPLEMENT
     
  8. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    Main Entry: mu·sic
    Pronunciation: 'myü-zik
    Function: noun
    Usage: often attributive
    Etymology: Middle English musik, from Old French musique, from Latin musica, from Greek mousikE any art presided over by the Muses, especially music, from feminine of mousikos of the Muses, from Mousa Muse
    Date: 13th century
    1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony
    2 a : an agreeable sound : EUPHONY &lt;her voice was music to my ears&gt; b : musical quality &lt;the music of verse&gt;
    3 : a musical accompaniment &lt;a play set to music&gt;
    4 : the score of a musical composition set down on paper
    5 : a distinctive type or category of music &lt;there is a music for everybody -- Eric Salzman&gt;
     
  9. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    When it is proven that the Bible condemns certain styles of music or declares certain instruments to be inherently evil, I'll concede the argument.Until then, I'll stick to the above definitions.
     
  10. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    DHK said:

    Consider what is written here in the fourteenth chapter of 1Corinthians, in the context of the gifts of the Spirit.

    Paul is speaking of church order, specifically speaking of tongues. He is using musical instruments as an analogy, nothing more. 1 Cor. 14:7-8 is not a music lesson. This is (again) a passage taken out of context and made to prove a point it was not intended to.

    That being said . . .

    When an orchestra plays every instrument gives a "distinct sound," whether flute or harp, or whatever the instrument may be, every one of them has a distinct sound. . . .
    In rock music every instrument has a distinct sound, just like the orchestra. You can identify the instruments. The one big difference in most rock music, is that the message is blurred. You cannot here or understand the message because of the music, or its loudness.


    Speak for yourself. I have no problem with hearing and understanding the music or the message.

    Perhaps the problem is not with the music, but an untrained ear on your part.

    When he plays the great hymns of the faith my soul is uplifted and edified. If he were to play rock, I would get a headache. What's the difference?

    It's all in your head, for starters. Why should your subjective experience be normative for all?

    [ July 08, 2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]
     
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Sez who?

    [ July 08, 2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Any one who has taken a freshman level music appreciation course knows that instruments are chosen for a certain composition because of the mood they help communicate.

    Tchiakovsky invented the Celleste for the Dance of the Sugarplum Fairy, because he wanted a certain kind of sound.

    He also invented the piano.

    Even today, when there is not something to choose from to create the desired effect in the listener, skilled composers will invent instruments.

    It is not subjective, but CCM proponents must argue that it is to maintain their case.
     
  13. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    Sez who?</font>[/QUOTE]I hate to say it like this but anyone who has common sense.

    There is no reason to assume moral claims where none are expressly given.That is the whole problem with pharisaical law.
     
  14. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    I played classical viola and cello throughout elementary, middle and high school.I took 'reading and writing music' and 'music theory 1 & 2.I had boxes filled with tapes and at one point and had well over 500 cd's of all various types of music.I am well aware of musical styles and moods.That has absolutely nothing to do with some innate moral quality in music.Moods are not sinful.Sadness, joy, anger, mourning, and even hatred all have their proper context in life.I said it before and I maintain that sin comes from the heart and is revealed in our words and deeds, not instruments that we play.

    Everyone who composes a piece of music is trying to express something.Even if it's only on a subconscious level.

    The basic traditional keyboard has been around in some form or other (organ, harpsichord) since the 1400's

    Is there something wrong with inventing instruments?

    I don't argue that anything is subjective to maintain anything, I just argue that it is impossible for music to communicate immorality.You cannot prove otherwise.
     
  15. Matticus

    Matticus New Member

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    Tchiakovsky invented the Celleste for the Dance of the Sugarplum Fairy, because he wanted a certain kind of sound.

    He also invented the piano.

    Just wanted to quickly point out that the piano was around long before Tchaikovsky. It was invented sometime in the 1700's, Tchaikovsky was not alive in the 1700's.

    God Bless
    Matt
     
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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  17. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    The message was one of rebellion and free love and the sort.

    It's always the message, always always always.Music alone cannot communicate immorality.
     
  18. SorryDude

    SorryDude Guest

    A song with or without words can have a spirit of darkness or it can have the opposite. But the thing is this spirit or emotion that a song conveys does not come from its discribtion (genre) but from its writer. Once a human gets involved it is no longer neutral. This means that rock in its self is not evil but many evil people use it to convey there emotons. But this does not mean that the genre can not be used for a purpose of expressing something as good as the Love and beuaty of Christ Jesus.

    [ July 09, 2002, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: SorryDude ]
     
  19. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    So you can tell the difference between an unsaved and a saved man playing the guitar, or a piano or say even a tuba?This is why you need to stick to scripture when you make moral assertions.
     
  20. SorryDude

    SorryDude Guest

    No i can not tell the difference between a saved man playing and an unbeliever playing. But i can tell when God has had somthng to do with it.
     
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