Are there good and evil forms of music?

Without lyrics to a tune you've never heard before and therefore don't know the words?

 

Aaron said:

It is not subjective, but CCM proponents must argue that it is to maintain their case.

DHK's personal response to hymns and classical music, vs. the "headache" rock music gives him, is most definitely a subjective experience because it is not common to all human beings.

 

DHK said:

Music was the main cause of the immorality at Woodstock. They went there for the music. They ended up in immorality.

I suppose that no one actually went to Woodstock with the intention of practicing "free love," and no one brought the drugs, either, but they must have appeared out of thin air when the Grateful Dead started playing.

 

Call a spade a spade. There was no love, whether defined as free or not. It was evil wicked lust and gross immorality born out of wicked intentions and fueled by wicked music. The depths of sin to which those young people sank would have never happened had the "Ungrateful Dead" never appeared on the scene, along with the other rock groups.
DHK

 

When you make moral claims, you MUST hold to the authority of Scripture, anything less IS personal bias.

I'm not making moral claims about anything.As Paul said in Romans 14:14 "I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself;but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean."

Nuclear bombs aren't evil, they are simply a bunch of wires and metal and uranium.It is the heart of man who would make such a thing with the intent to obliterate millions of people in the blink of an eye that is evil.The golden calf that the Isrealites worshipped wasn't evil.It was just a hunk of metal in the shape of an animal.The sin was in their hearts and made evident in their words and deeds by worshipping the inanimate and blaspheming the name of the Lord.

I covered this before.The Bible doesn't name every possible way in which sin is made evident.For example, it doesn't say anything about abortion or smoking crack but that doesn't mean we are unable to tackle these MORAL issues from Scripture.In fact, that is the only way we can!

For the sake of argument I'll take you up on your challenge to show that gambling is wrong from the evidence of Scripture.After all, I think we can agree that the Bible provides the framework by which we must lead our lives in the pursuit of holiness.What does the Bible say about those consumed with the love of money?Let's look to Scripture.

Notice it isn't money in itself which is evil, but rather the love of money.

A man who risks squandering his possesions away in search of worldy wealth cannot live a Godly life because gambling is based on greed, covetousness and the love of money.

Can a covetous man driven by greed enter the kingdom of God?Let's look to Scripture.

Finally, let's look at some commands from Scripture that tell us how we should conduct ourselves in this area.

Have I demonstrated that all issues of morality must be tackled from Scripture yet?

I'll get back to your point about the Pharisees shortly but I have some time constraints here.

Your brother in Christ,

Jacob

 

Without lyrics to a tune you've never heard before and therefore don't know the words?</font>[/QUOTE]Im not talking about words. Im talking about what you feel aftr listening to a song. God can use music of any type and there isnt allways a need for words.

 

halakah (ha·la·KAH) also halacha, plural halakat (ha·la·KOT). Way, law, or rule as used in the first century CE consisting of the oral interpretation of ordinances derived from the "traditions of the elders" defining an elaborate set of regulations for obeying the Law of Moses; later also the body of Jewish religious law based upon evolving oral rabbinic interpretations of Pharisaic Judaism, especially the legal part of the Talmud. The halakah, or "traditions of the elders" and later the "oral Torah," by which the Pharisees attempted to establish their jurisdiction over all aspects of Jewish life, was the ideology by which the Pharisees sought legitimization of their own religious "authority." The traditions of the elders consisted of practices the Pharisees themselves added but wanted the public to accept as authentic. The halakah of the Pharisees appears to have been self-derived and limited to their own traditions. The Pharisees claimed Moses as their progenitor and the legitimating authority for their customs. The Pharisaic "oral Torah" came to be as highly regarded by later rabbinic Judaism as the written Torah. Subsequently some Jews even considered it more important.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.

I want you to answer whether or not you can determine that a piece of music (no lyrics) is inherently righteous or unrighteous.If not, you are going to have to concede my point that it is in fact the expressed verbal message which reveals the righteous/unrighteous intentions of the performers heart.

 

Perhaps i didnt exlain myself very well. What i am saying is that you can not condem a whole genre because the genre is only a name of a grouping of songs and artists. The genre is neutral and conveys no spirit of evil or spirit of good. The thing that makes a song in a certin genre no longer neutral is the human that is writing it, not the words not the sound of the music but what this person is putting into it.

 

Ok, for once i kinda agree with DHK. However, we cannot compare secular music and music praising God. there is a HUGE difference between them. As SorryDude pointed out, the message is different. And I agree with him, you can tell if music has God in it.

God Bless
Matt

 

Please back this statement up with proof.Give me an example of a piece of music (no lyrics or vocals) which communicates immorality.

I would also like you to provide Scriptural evidence that such a thing is possible.

I am assuming that when you say 'neutral' you mean morally neutral.

[ July 10, 2002, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Odemus ]

 

DHK said

It was evil wicked lust and gross immorality born out of wicked intentions and fueled by wicked music.

First you said the music was the main cause. Now you are saying that "wicked intentions" were the main cause and it was merely fueled by the music.

I would have no objection to the latter claim, since the Bible says sin comes from the wickedness of the human heart first and foremost; but why have you changed your argument?

The depths of sin to which those young people sank would have never happened had the "Ungrateful Dead" never appeared on the scene, along with the other rock groups.

I would like to see this claim documented. It looks like a case of post-hockery.

 

Most people assume gambling to be about money or wordly wealth, if you meant something else please clarify, otherwise my argument stands as referenced to those verses and a myriad of others.

No, you have not.

Music does have the ability to communicate emotion.No emotion in and of itself is evil.The entire spectrum of human emotion has a proper place in life.Whether it be love, hatred, joy, sadness or what have you.IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR MUSIC TO COMMUNICATE EXPLICIT MEANING.

Once again, declarative statements, no scripture.

No I care for you to hold to Scripture as the sole authority of moral claims.

[ July 10, 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Odemus ]

 

Darn tootin I do.Whenever the Bible instructs us on how to behave towards one another, or how to communicate to one another, it is always in terms of how we speak.There is not one single verse that gives us instruction on how we should communicate or not communicate with instruments.The notion is ridiculous.

The Bible addresses every possible root sin that gambling can encompass and you know I am right.Stop playing semantics.Gambling is about greed and coveting whether it involves money or anything else.The Bible addresses these things explicitly.The Bible however does not once in any capacity refer to music in terms of morality.Not once, not at all, and as Rush would say, zip, zero, nada.

Did you catch my correction on your understanding of the Pharisees?They did in fact add to the law, that is why it is referred to as Pharisaical law.That is why I call your moral claims Pharisaical.

 

I hereby issue this challenge.If you believe music can actually communicate explicit meaning, please by all means, tell me what the tune below communicates.

Let's put your moral claims to the test.

nice little ditty

 

After you:

A)Take a guess at what the composer was trying to convey
B) Admit that it is impossible to do so
C)Avoid the challenge in your typical trade mark style

I will tell you what the composer was actually trying to communicate, because I know.Not because it is inherently obvious in the music, but because I have read his notes on the musical score for this movie.