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Are these saying true?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by webdog, Dec 20, 2007.

  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member

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    "I'm not a murderer becuase I have murdered, I murder because I'm a murderer"

    "I'm not a rapist because I rape, I rape because I'm a rapist"

    "I'm not an drunkard because I drink too much, I drink too much because I'm a drunkard"

    "I'm not an adulterer because I cheat on my wife, I cheat on my wife because I'm an adulterer"

    "I'm not a liar because I lie, I lie becuase I'm a liar"

    "I'm not a cheater becuase I cheated on my test, I cheated on my test becuase I'm a cheater"
     
  2. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Yes, the action that is manifested by the individual establishes the nature of that man from which the action procedes. However, the action does not specifically define their character, the action merely describes the manifestion of their desire ALREADY within them. Are they ONLY murderers, liers, aldulterers or have they continued in other sins as well? So it does not matter what sin you want to apply to it, they do it because the nature of the person that predisposes them to do any and all manifested forms of sinful life.

    Thus you sin because of your fallen or corrupt nature. You do not have a fallen nature because you sinned.
     
    #2 Allan, Dec 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2007
  3. Sopranette

    Sopranette New Member

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    Sounds like one big cop out to me. We are all capable of these sins, most of us take some responsibility for our actions, though. If a person says they do these things because that's what they were designed to do, they may never repent of their sins. After all, it's not THEIR fault they were made this way.

    love,

    Sopranette
     
  4. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1 New Member

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    It is absolutely true. It is the sin nature in us. This is why the cute little church kid who lies and dis obeys is just as wicked in God's eyes as the murderer and fornicator (Rom. 1). They both need the same salvation, not for what they do, but for what they are.

    When I am witnessing, I often tell people that they are just as wicked as Adolf Hitler. If they see themselves as better, they have too much pride to be saved!

    We were all murderers, fornicators, etc in our hearts before salvation. If you were from birth exposed to the same environment as Hussein, are you telling me that you would do better? There is none righteous. This describes the heart.
     
    #4 Rubato 1, Dec 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2007
  5. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Ok, you are condemning them for the same pride you just dispayed through your declaration of knowing who can and can not be saved.

    A person must 'see' they are a sinner through the illuminating of the Holy Spirit, not just believe what someone tells them. And if that is how you witness, please find more tact (not compromise) in conveying biblical truth.

    Take care as you walk in the fear and admonission of the Lord.
     
    #5 Allan, Dec 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2007
  6. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member

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    Right - Hitler was once an "innocent" little baby in his mother's arms. But in God's economy, the little innocent baby was one of the great monsters of humankind - ALREADY. And temporaly speaking, every human being is a potential murderer, rapist, drunkard, etc., because those sins are in our fallen natures.
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member

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    I understand that, but is one a murderer prior to commiting murder, or one a thief prior to stealing? You are implying that in your post.
     
  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    It doesn't matter what crime you commit. You are still a fallen creature with a corrupt nature at enmity with God until He takes mercy on you and gives you a new nature that is capable of pleasing Him.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member

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    I know that. That's not what I was asking, though.
     
  10. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Thinking out loud here.

    Jesus said that no one can come to Father except through Him. This certainly implies that even infants need a Savior. But only sinners need a Savior, right? So even though an infant may not have "committed" a sin, he is still a sinner in need of a Savior.
     
  11. Sopranette

    Sopranette New Member

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    But an infant can't commit these sins. An adult has the ability to chose to do these things or not. If we are going to say, "Well, he killed her because he's a murderer", and leave it at that, our society is in very big trouble. There has to be some accountability for one's actions.

    love,

    Sopranette
     
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member

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    This is what I was getting at. Having a sin nature doesn't mean one is a sinner. It means one WILL sin, but in itself does not make one a sinner.

    If infants are sinners from birth, by the very definition of what a sinner entails, they would have had to commit SOME sin in the womb. What sin would that have been? Some say it's Adam's sin and guilt carried over. Still others say that having a sin nature automatically makes one a sinner. I don't agree with either. A child WILL sin, but even then I don't believe God holds that child guilty unless they have the means to understand what sin is, as the story of Abimilech shows.
     
  13. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1 New Member

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    There are two perspectives to consider here, God's vs. ours. We can't condemn a person for something we have not seen them do (Minority Report, anyone?) God, however, transecends our human frailties and sees hearts as well as actions. The Bible says that the babes come forth from the womb speaking lies. A little baby is one of the most selfish things I know.

    Being a sinner is in no way an excuse to sin, though. A drunk driver swerves because he is drunk, but this is not an excuse, it is a cause. The root issue is what must be addressed, not the symptoms. This is why the secular counselling and adictions programs have such a low success rate, etc.

    Anyway, the Biblical principle is clear: we sin because we are sinners in our hearts. This does not excuse us, it condemns us.

    Love,


    Rubato
     
  14. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Allan, you are on the money.
     
  15. Bob Farnaby

    Bob Farnaby New Member

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    None are true.

    Until the crime is committed the person is innocent of thatparticular crime, so one does not become a murderer until one has committed murder, etc,

    This in no way denies original sin or that Jesus said that if we commit the sin in the heart we are also guilty.

    Regards
    Bob
     
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member

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    I've never heard a baby speak at all, less speak lies.

    A baby is selfish? You have got to be kidding! What does a baby know, and how can a baby communicate besides crying? Unreal.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member

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    curious how you state all are not true...but then believe in original sin. Original sin basically says just this "we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners". I don't understand that logic.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Brother Webdog -- your statments are so
    20th Century (1901-2000). Here are some
    more 21st Century (2001-2100) statements

    "I'm not a murderer becuase I have murdered, I murder because I have murderer genes"

    "I'm not a rapist because I rape, I rape because I have rapist genes"

    "I'm not an drunkard because I drink too much, I drink too much because I have drunkard genes"

    "I'm not an adulterer because I cheat on my significant other, I cheat on my significant other because I've got adulterer genes"

    "I'm not a liar because I lie, I lie becuase I'm a human (i.e. have liar genes)"

    "I'm not a cheater becuase I cheated on my test, I cheated on my test becuase I have cheater genes"
     
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member

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    :laugh:

    You forgot to add to each one "...and I had a rough childhood".
     
  20. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Not in our eyes Web.
    They are a sinner because that who they ARE already DUE TO their fallen nature.
    So when their action OF sin manifest itself it does so FROM that nature which is ALREADY fallen and corrupt. Why are babies born NOT doing these from the womb? Because they can not yet DO anything but as they are able TO conscientiously DO things a little at a time they display that nature immediately.

    Thus the scripture refering to "babes come forth from the womb speaking lies". Now, we both agree that scriptre does not lie so the passage MUST be dealt with as is. The passage is speaking about the childs nature. Think about it this way web, if a child was born able to walk, talk, and think as an adult, he would indeed be born speaking lies. So it isn't speaking in the literal sense of a child from the wombs immidiate ability but that of their nature which IS who they ARE.

    Remember Web, it is not what they do that makes them who they are, it is who they are that establishes what they will do. Thus they are not sinners because they sin, they sin BECAUSE they are a sinner by nature (ie. fallen or corrup and therefor contrary to God's holy Character)

    Here is a passage from Gods eyes.
    Was Satan created as murderer? The answer is no.
    But scripture says "he was a murderer from the beginning".
    How could he be a murderer in the beginning who had not yet murdered?
    In the same vein, how can a child come from the womb speaking lies?
    How can scripture state that God so loved the 'world' that He sent His Son, if not everyone in the world needed His Sons life?
    How can scripture state "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"?

    (Other than the one about Satan) They are references to who we ARE, even before we manifest it physically. The first one about Satan and the last one about us show the same view point with regard to what God sees and thus the reason He sent His Son to save us.

    Think about the Isaiah 53 passage:
    He was wounded for our trangressions - for our actions of sin itself
    He was bruised for our iniquities - the conquences of that sin / guilt
    The chasitement of our peace was upon Him - This concerns our discussion about the sin nature. We are not born in a right relationship with God BECAUSE OF the sin nature which is contrary to God. If we are not in a right relationship then we are by defintion in a wrong or have no relationship with God. Thus we are not at peace with God but emnity.
    By his stripes we are healed - Through Him and His sacrifice all things are made New.

    Thus in Christ's death He took care off all things that are contrary to God's Character in and of us and appeased His Fathers Holiness/wrath. He brought spiritual healing by dealing with sin, the consequences of sin, and the sourse of our sin (sin nature) in Himself. therefore, it is of Him and through Him we have victory in Christ over sin and death, and He has given us a NEW Nature.


    And so it will always come back to that Web, we have a sin nature and is contrary to God. If it is contrary then we are contrary and God MUST deal with that or judge it.
     
    #20 Allan, Dec 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2007
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