Are these saying true?

Gee, I don't know, web...I guess last night when my almost two-year old woke up with an ear infection, instead of crying unconsolably, she should have said "Mom and Dad, I have an ear infection. Would you please give me some Motrin and put some drops in my ears until you can take me to the doctor tomorrow? I'd really appreciate it, cause this hurts so bad!" :laugh: Man, I sure would have figured it out a lot faster if she would have just told me instead of being so darn selfish! :laugh:

 

Yes, and in so stating they reveal how God sees us all.

First, does the fact it was written poetically mean it has no truth. The entirety of the psalms are written poetically via specific, metaphorical, and allagorical pose.

Second, I never stated it WAS to be taken literally as I showed here:

Thus it is allegorical in nature. The very nature of an allegory is a figurative treatment of one subject in the form of another referencing a spiritual meaning through concrete material forms. No babe from his mothers womb can talk (except in the enquirer :laugh: ) therefore it is a spiritual truth regarding the same inherent connection the two share. 1. Infant 2. lieing. Here is the passage in question:

Something to remember here is that David like the Jewish nation believe that being born a Jew was salvation in itself and the non-Jew were all considered wicked.
Thus the 'wicked' are BORN going astray, thus the phrase 'as soon as they ARE born'. (we know from the NT no one is born saved)
NIV say it this way

NLT put it thusly as well:

The word 'estranged' means to 'be a stranger' and it's implication is that of a person not known by another. So who is it the are strangers to? God.
This word is also in the 'Perfect tense' which means it is a COMPLETED action. Yes, completed even before birth, since it even from birth the wicked go astray and FROM the womb (meaning before they even come forth) they are wayward. Thus it is speaking to something that already IS.

Therefore the allagory of this passage is establishing that someone even FROM birth is born a stranger to God and from birth seek their own way rather than God's, thus gone astray.

There is no problem at all Web. Psalms 58 is not occuring 9 months later. Where did you get that fromt he scripture?
It states their nature from birth and continues in the next verse speaking of their lives they are now living. Notice verse one is speaking to worldly men who presume to be righteous judges. Verse 3 states in essence they are as they always were, and verse 4 picks back up in their present day lives showing no visable change (from birth till now).

That is why scripture states "there is NONE that seek after God'. Why? Because from the womb we have gone our own way.

If one has a sin nature, does God see a person who is before him without flaw of taint. The answer is no, and therefore that answer is the very foundation of being estranged from God because He in fact does not know you in any relational way. From birth we are tainted, corrupt, and fallen in nature and therefore enemies of God from even before birth. It is from that nature our sin procedes because it is that corrupt nature that estranges us from God, and is WHY we go our own way AWAY from God.

So in the sense of DOING a sin, no the child is not guilty. But the fact of what they are from birth set them at odds with God to go their own way instead of following Him from the beginning. From the stand point of God's holiness we see they have a sin nature which is corrupt automatically setting them against God's uncorruptness. Their unholiness (imperfection) is in conflict with God's Holiness. Their unrighteous (fallen nature) is in conflict with God's righteousness.

They and we are ALL born sinners IN THAT SENSE, of being by nature children of wrath.

therefore, Having a sin nature establishes the fact you are nothing more than a sinner. It is best you will ever be because it is who you are Web.

That is not our 'nature' it is a physical ability.
Our nature establishes the type of person we are on the whole.
We break it down at time with phrases like "they are good natured" and is a reference to the TYPE of personality a person has but it does not exclude the potential to be a screw up either. It simply means that they are typically nice, kind, and or caring. But spiritually we are know to God BY the whole and not just typically or most of the time we are...such and such. We either are or we are not.

So a persons sin or fallen nature does not equate to that which 'falls' short of the Glory of God. Our very nature is indictive of the phrase to fall short of the Glory of God since our very nature is ALREADY corrupt and fallen. And yes it does say 'have sinned' but it is refering to the fact that in Adam all have sinned and is explained in the rest of the chapter and chapter 5 as well.

Again that goes back to what I showed earlier with regard to going astray. Yes we are born going astray. No one seeks after God web, there is none. We have all gone astray. And Yes, again if it were not for Christ those millions of aborted babies and infants would be in hell, period. But Christ died for them as well since they are not righteous, perfect, and with a new nature.

Of Course, thus they must be saved or IOW - given a NEW NATURE.

That is correct Web, that no one is born with a terminated life. So what is spiritual life, or better what is eternal life web. Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
If one is estranged from the womb web, what relationship do they have. Eternal or spiritual life is knowing God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. So what about those who Can't hear, understand and choose. They must die and go to hell right? Wrong. They to have an advocate before the Father and He pleads THEIR case on their behalf. He is still their sacrifice because THEY NEED a saviour to or THEY WILL be cast into an eternal hell.

No you are dealing with the gospel to those who can hear and understand, and who have a choice to be made. Of course those can not walk in faith since they have not lived and therefore able to set forth faith in Christ, that is why Christ is THEIR advocate on their behalf for what they had no chance TO DO, and He remains their sacrifice as well for which they could not do before their death.

I think you are wrong in that premise since it is because of the sin nature that God gives us a NEW nature so as to be one in Christ. The old nature or sin nature is that nature which scripture speaks of being against the things of God. Sin is the result of that nature because sin procedes OUT OF that nature. It is fallen and corrupt and at emnity with God even from birth.

 

You and I have discussed this before and at present I don't have time to go into it sorry. (we are doing christmas tomorrow cause I have to work it) But I feel your understanding of the passage is not the same thing the passage is actually saying.

If it is muddled and choppy I'm sorry. To many thoughts at present and a slightly angry wife. So I'm outta here brother - Merry Christmas in Christ our Lord.

 

Which came first...the chicken or the egg?

 

Oh yea, how come "the soul that sinneth shall die"????

Why all the scripture and council not to do those things????

Why the "second" death if you can not help what you are doing.

Do infants go to hell??? or do they have to come to an age to know to do good and do it not??

Why were some found perfect before God, keeping all of His statues, ordinances and Commandments.

So you believe a man is a helpless creature that can't control his fleshly desires. If he rapes his neighbor, it was in him to rape his neighbor, therefore he couldn't help himself???

Sorry Allan;
I do not believe that.

Rom 6:16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Rom 1:22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
BBob,

 

Yeah!! That verse Brother Bob is not saying what you are 'assuming' it says.
First, look at the context of pasage in Eze 18. God is no longer going to allow a false proverb to be spoken through out Israel (vs 3).
Second, verse vs. 4 is saying that God will NOT hold the children resposible for their parents sin and judge the Children - as they had been falsely saying.

First, This is refering to Gods judgment specifically upon the one who has transgressed Him.
Second, LOOK up the word 'Sinneth', it is a Qal mood, Partical Active tense.
Qal - is used with regard to causal action like 'he ate, he played, et.."
Active - is current, reflecting current time
Partical - is the an action or condition in its unbroken
continuity, and corresponds to the English verb, "to be" with the
present participle.
So it is literally translated 'The soul that continues in sin, it shall die', or be put to death - judged.

This is expounded in the context of the rest of the passages after it which speak of the person who 'continues' in a righteous living and God's command 'SHALL LIVE'.

Then it reflects not a person who commits 'a sin' spiritually dies. But a person who continues in sinfulness will be judged for their own sinful action. Read it Bob, it has NOTHING to do with when the soul spiritually dies but when Gods judgment for their physical death is given if they do not repent. That is the context of the entire chapter.

Do what things? Sin? Even believers (not just the sinners) are told not to continue in sin. And if a person (believer) claims to HAVE no sin their are a liar according to scripture. But if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleans us from all unrighteousness.

Because we are condemned or found guilty but we are not Damned or judged yet.
And since we are not yet judged unto damnation but under condemnation God has given unto us through Christ a choice.

Try reading the posts Bob.

So you are contending that we do not need Christ if we live a good life?
Remember part of those commandments is the sacrifices which cover their sins.

A person will sin (no matter what their sin of choice is) because it is who they are. Not that a person rapes because they are can not help themselves but a person rapes because they have a fallen nature and corrupt and does not WANT to help themselves but to enjoy their unrighteousness. A person lies for the same reason, thinks perverted thoughts, is a drunkard, and so on and so forth. And no, they have no ability of themselves to keep from sinning in whatever they chose to continue in. We sin because it is who we are, we are BY NATURE children of wrath.

Let everyone be perusaded in their own minds Brother Bob. I didn't ask you to beleive it. But by the same token you haven't shown anything that refutes it either.

Look at the context Brother Bob. This is Paul speaking to christians and it is speaking of whom they have yeilded themselves a servant to.
If they obeyed their desire to sin, they made themselves a slave to sin and made it their Master or Lord because the followed it rather than God.

This is refering to God giving them over to their sinfulness. IOW- Knowing the truth and even that God will judge them for their sinfulness they reject and continue in their sin, therefore God gives them over to their sin or lets them stay in it (seals them in their choice to reject the truth). I'm not sure why you posted this one. Read the context Bob from vs 18 to the end of the chapter.

You bet. They thought they didn't need God nor that they need fear him. Professing themselves wise, they became fools.

Still not sure why you quoted this one either.

 

Biblically, the Chichen.

 

Absolutely. If one offends in one part of the law, he's offended all. there is murder and adultery in every sinner's heart.

 

[/quote]
Yeah!! That verse Brother Bob is not saying what you are 'assuming' it says.
First, look at the context of pasage in Eze 18. God is no longer going to allow a false proverb to be spoken through out Israel (vs 3).
Second, verse vs. 4 is saying that God will NOT hold the children resposible for their parents sin and judge the Children - as they had been falsely saying.

[/quote]
First, This is refering to Gods judgment specifically upon the one who has transgressed Him.
Second, LOOK up the word 'Sinneth', it is a Qal mood, Partical Active tense.
Qal - is used with regard to causal action like 'he ate, he played, et.."
Active - is current, reflecting current time
Partical - is the an action or condition in its unbroken
continuity, and corresponds to the English verb, "to be" with the
present participle.
So it is literally translated 'The soul that continues in sin, it shall die', or be put to death - judged.

This is expounded in the context of the rest of the passages after it which speak of the person who 'continues' in a righteous living and God's command 'SHALL LIVE'.

[/quote]

14: Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15: That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16: Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17: That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

It does mean what I said. The father is responsible for his sins and the son is responsible for his sins. If the son does not sin as the father, then he shall live. Therefore, it is saying we are all accountable for our own sins.

[/quote]
Do what things? Sin? Even believers (not just the sinners) are told not to continue in sin. And if a person (believer) claims to HAVE no sin their are a liar according to scripture. But if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleans us from all unrighteousness.

You always quote the scripture if you say you have no sin, but never seem to get to the next scripture that says "that which is born of God, cannot sin".

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[/quote]
Because we are condemned or found guilty but we are not Damned or judged yet.
And since we are not yet judged unto damnation but under condemnation God has given unto us through Christ a choice.

We are damned if we don't get forgiveness of that sin. I would like to know where some of you get this "continually" sin. It is not in the Bible. It says if you do these things you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

1Cr 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

You yourself, said if murder it was already in you, so you are already a murder.

Are you saying that I have to have forgiveness for murder also????

[/quote]
Try reading the posts Bob.

Try answering this question for it is not being smart but goes to the very doctrine you are saying, that this infant is already a murderer in its heart. Therefore if it dies in infancy, it will go to hell, according to what you are saying.

[/quote]
So you are contending that we do not need Christ if we live a good life?
Remember part of those commandments is the sacrifices which cover their sins.

No, they were found perfect before God but still needed the blood of the Lamb. When Jesus died is when the fountain was opened to the house of David, and half flowed to the hinder sea and half to the former sea. It still took the blood of the Lamb to cover all who had died before He came.

[/quote]
A person will sin (no matter what their sin of choice is) because it is who they are. Not that a person rapes because they are can not help themselves but a person rapes because they have a fallen nature and corrupt and does not WANT to help themselves but to enjoy their unrighteousness. A person lies for the same reason, thinks perverted thoughts, is a drunkard, and so on and so forth. And no, they have no ability of themselves to keep from sinning in whatever they chose to continue in. We sin because it is who we are, we are BY NATURE children of wrath.

So, again you have just stated that we can't help but murder, steal, lie, fornicate, worship idols etc. Sorry Allan; I do not believe that. I never raped no one, in my heart or flesh.

[/quote]
Let everyone be perusaded in their own minds Brother Bob. I didn't ask you to beleive it. But by the same token you haven't shown anything that refutes it either.

I think I have refuted it too, its just you do not accept it. According to what you are stating that you believe, then infants has murder, lies, fornication, worshiping of idols already in its heart and if it dies that way, hell will be its home. You haven't shown me how the infants escape this damnation.

[/quote]
Look at the context Brother Bob. This is Paul speaking to christians and it is speaking of whom they have yeilded themselves a servant to.
If they obeyed their desire to sin, they made themselves a slave to sin and made it their Master or Lord because the followed it rather than God.

So it is a sin to a Christian, but not to a sinner.........hmmm

[/quote]
This is refering to God giving them over to their sinfulness. IOW- Knowing the truth and even that God will judge them for their sinfulness they reject and continue in their sin, therefore God gives them over to their sin or lets them stay in it (seals them in their choice to reject the truth). I'm not sure why you posted this one. Read the context Bob from vs 18 to the end of the chapter.

No, this is when we come to know God and glorify Him not, then it is sin and we are in darkness. We then are in need of a Saviour who is the "Light" to redeem us.

,

 

continued;

Quote:
Rom 1:22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
BBob,
You bet. They thought they didn't need God nor that they need fear him. Professing themselves wise, they became fools.

Oh, didn't you think you were also very wise before you were saved and even probably questioned whether you needed a Savior or not.

Still not sure why you quoted this one either.

I quoted it because it goes with verse 1:21

BBob

 

Original sin includes the natural death of which we live so many years and then die. It also includes the spiritual death, that when we come to know good and do it not, then the spiritual death is pronounced upon us. If an infant dies, it never reached that age of accountability, but still needs the blood of Christ to overcome the grave and death.

If original sin meant you died instantly, then at birth, you would die naturally so, but it means it is pronounced upon you some time in the future. So also, is the Spiritual death, that sometime in the future when you come to know good and do it not, then comes the Spiritual death.

BBob,

 

Does this mean we cannot sin with the New Nature, being we did sin, because of the Old Nature?????

BBob,

 

If we still have sin natures, and are in a relationship with God, it is because we are in union with Christ. Short of our union with Christ, our sin natures would prevent us from having that relationship since they automatically make us objects of God's wrath.

Once we are united with Christ, God sees us "in Christ", so he sees Christ's work and Christ's righteousness and not our own nature.

Can I ask you a question? Do you believe infants who die will be glorified?

 

I was responding to your argument that the fact that we still have sin natures and yet are in a relationship with God means that having a sin nature doesn't automatically mean separation from God. I was just trying to point out that if there is a way for that automatic separation to be overcome (as by union with Christ) then your argument really doesn't work against what Allan said.

Okay, fair enough. I was thinking specifically about glorified bodies. Are their bodies redeemed?

 

God doesn't look on the outward appearance. He see's the heart, and where you see an innocent baby, God sees a wretched, covetous old sinner.

 

Original sin is simply this, in Adam all die. You all speak of the sin nature as if it is a tangible "thing" that is passed on to us like a genetic trait.

In reality the sin nature is the lack of something. It is the absence of spiritual life. Adam could not pass on to any of his descendents spiritual life having died when he himself sinned. So we are all spiritually still-born.