Are you a universalist or do you believe in limited attonement?

Dale,

Let me explain slowly... pay attention.

The payment was made (Christ's death on the cross, and His blood on the altar).
God accepted the payment (He was pleased with the sacrifice His Son gave for all mankind.)
Because the payment was made eternal life was made available for each and every man, woman, and child in the world.
But there had to be one more act... the acceptance of the gift of eternal life by those who Christ died for (again, every man, woman and child in the world).

If they do not accept the gift, it does not mean the price was not paid.

It cannot be explained any better than that.

 

Dale-C,

I understand what you are saying. I gave my interpretation on the other thread so I will attempt to do a better job on this one.
Christ made the payment. It was for us and it was to God. Keeping with that concept, if you owe the bank for a vehicle and I go directly to the bank and pay that debt to the bank for you, then you owe nothing. It doesn't matter if you accept it, believe it, want it or not. If the bank accepts it then its paid.
In this case, I see that God so loved the world, that He accepted the payment because the sacrifice was perfect.

Adam did a work in the garden. It effected every person that ever lived (Except Christ becasue of the virgin birth), it doesn't matter if they believe it, accept it or not. To say that the blood of Christ only effected a select few is saying that Adam's work was far greater than Christ's work. To say that we have to partake in it (Having faith, accepting, working) is to limit the application of His sacrifice. After all, we didn't have to do anything to accept Adam's gift to us did we? I for one feel that Christ did a much greater work than Adam. So, I don't have to do anything either. It is applied!!

BUT

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in YOUR sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in YOUR sins.

When we willfully transgress the law of God, we are guilty and held accountable for our own sins. Christ clearly states that if you want forgiveness of these sins, you must repent of them and believe in Christ.
Christ paid for the orginal sin of Adam for everyone. God made a covering for Adam's sin when He covered him with animal skin. Christ covered our sin by the shedding of His blood.
Adam was removed from the garden so he could not eat of the tree of life.
When we transgress the law of God, we are also removed from the garden and have no way to eat of the tree of life.
When Christ raised from the dead, He beat death, hell and the grave. We are given eternal life by God's grace through faith. Those that fail to believe will be eternally seperated from God. They will die in their own sins and eternally be cut off from life.
Those that do repent and believe will be forgiven of their sins. They will be born again and nothing can seperate us from God.

Its not a second payment, its forgiveness for "different" sins. Forgiveness of the original sin (Sin of the world) was applied for everyone. Forgiveness of YOUR sins are justified by God, but He only justifies us according to His own will. He says you must repent from your sins and believe (Trust) in Christ.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

I would like your thoughts on this and may God bless you and your family.

 

So following the pattern set forth in the scriptures, sin only effected the the elect or all mankind? Because the Bible says that the same ALL effected by Adams sin is the same ALL that can be effected by the second Adams righteousness. (It's called a pattern)

Part 1 - Because of the First Adam's sin. (OUR Great Grand dad!)
Rom. 5:12 says that because of Adam, death passed upon ALL men because of sin. By the sin of disobedience, death now effects ALL men in Adam lineage. Proof?
1 Cor. 15:22 says, "For as in Adam ALL die..."
Rom 5:18 says, "Therefore as by the offense of one judgement came upon ALL men to condemnation..."

Part 2 - The Second Adam (Jesus Christ)
1Cr 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 - Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 - The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

The Second Adam ushered in a new spiritual creation:
Col 1:12 - Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 - Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Wow, the Bible says that ALL mankind fell in the first Adam, but that this same ALL, can rise through the second - Jesus Christ!
Rom 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 - Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 - That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I am not saying ALL will be saved but that ALL can or at least any child or grandchild of the first Adam.

 

PK,
What is your take on this:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Two things:
1. In v18 the offence of one effected "all". In v19 the disobedience of one effected "many".
Also in v18 the righteousness of one effected "all" and in v19 the obedience of one effected "many".
I have struggled with the understanding the difference between the "all" and the "many". Unless the difference is between the righteousness and obedience. You quoted verse 18 so I was hoping you had a better understanding of this scripture than I do.

2. Is there a difference between (v18) "judgment came upon all men to condemnation" and "The free gift came upon all men unto justification of life".
Do the words "to" and "upon" have different meanings?

I hope you can help me with this understanding. These questions are open to anyone, all help is appreciated.

 

........................

 

Sorry, I got in a hurry. I ment to "bold" the word "Unto"

2. Is there a difference between (v18) "judgment came upon all men to condemnation" and "The free gift came upon all men unto justification of life".
Do the words "to" and "unto" have different meanings?

 

Wouldn't that cause some confusion on the other side of the equation. If the "Many" and the "All" are the same, wouldn't that mean that "All" are condemned and "All" are made righteous?

 

There really isn't any distinction of 'to' and 'unto' except that the translation authors were possibly using it to help illistrate the distinction between the two contrasts given already.

The words that distinguish or are contrasted here are "judgment' and 'free gift'.

A judgment is something you have no choice in the matter but to be resigned to its indictment due to your guilt. - judgment came upon all men to condemnation.
All men have this judgment in common.

The 'free gift' is that which is offered yet the just because it is offered it does not obligate anyone to receive it. - the free gift came upon all men to the justification to life.
All men have this free gift in common as well.


The very nature of 'Judgment' is that you have no choice but recieve it.
The very nature of the 'free gift' is that you do have a choice to receive or reject it.

All men are under condemnation with out Christ, but not all men will receive the free gift that they might be justified in Christ. The justification to life is only given or imparted through faith in the atoning work of Christ Jesus. For it is by faith (In Christ alone) that we are justified.

 

In order to understand verse 19 proporly you must first understand that Paul is reflecting upon the condition of those that are seen throught their resepective representives (ie, one man and the other one man).

Since we know that verse 18 states ALL men are under condemnation, verse 19 isn't contradicting it but actually is refering in the first half of the verse to all those who continue in Adam are sinners. We notice these in the first man are those who 'were' made sinners and their position as a sinner never changed because they remained in Adam. Thus it does not use the term 'all' as inclusive regarding all mankind because it is refering to those that are seen through their resepective representives. Thus the term 'many' is used as all of an exclusive group, specifically to those in Adam.

However those in the other man (Christ Jesus) if you will notice 'shall be made' righteous. This reveals that those in the second man (Jesus) have their positions changed they will not remain in the first man but will follow after the second.

Thus the term 'many' is refering to 'all' of a particular group, and that there is only one of two groups you can be in. In Christ by fatih - unto salvation, or in Adam believing in everything else or nothing at all - unto damnation.

 

Isn't rejecting Christ a sin?

 

I'm sorry; I don't understand the problem here. Whether you say atonement is for all, or atonement is limited because not all accept it -- I think both sides are still saying some go to heaven, some don't. So I'm not understanding what the doctrinal issue is.

 

Christ paid for all sins. The Word of God says He did. Why deny the truth written in the Word of God?

Rejecting Christ and His gift is choice.

 

I believe this is the unpardonable sin. Rejecting Christ is the result of rejecting the Holy Spirit's testimony of Him. If you die in this state of unbelief, that's it. You can't be forgiven it.

But that is my opinion.

 

Jesus said all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men.

According to Jesus' own words in that verse, sin is separate from blasphemy.

But the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven men.

I believe blasphemy is nothing but rejection. For if one rejects Christ (and doesn't the Spirit testify of Him?), it cannot be forgiven.

But since all manner of sin shall be forgiven, the rejection of Christ is not sin, but choice.

 

Dale, as I said, it is only my opinion. I'm willing to learn about it. You know I don't believe in a works salvation. Grace + faith + nothing.

Jesus did say that the blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. What do you think He meant?

 

:laugh: What good are we? :laugh: