1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Are you a universalist or do you believe in limited attonement?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Mar 26, 2008.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    It seem tempting on here to try to give an opinion on everything, But I have learned the hard way that it is better to just say you don't know when you don't.

    The chicken I had for lunch was good but I hate eating crow :)
     
  2. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    That is true, but I still have an opinion. I'm a woman ya know. :laugh:

    And crow tastes nasty. I've eaten it many times.
     
  3. nunatak

    nunatak New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvinists preach Christ with a view toward election.

    Arminianists preach Christ with a view toward free will.

    Either way, Christ is preached.
     
  4. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    Messages:
    11,048
    Likes Received:
    321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm sorry; I don't understand the problem here. Whether you say atonement is for all, or atonement is limited because not all accept it -- I think both sides are still saying some go to heaven, some don't. So I'm not understanding what the doctrinal issue is.

    (I may have been misunderstood: I'm asking what the point of debating this is)
     
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    We're Baptists, duh! We have to debate everything! :laugh:
     
  6. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    989
    Likes Received:
    2
    Its simple but for some its impossible to see.

    Its all about Hebrews 11
     
  7. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    And arminians often err in neglecting God's sovereignty while calvinists are more prone to err by neglecting man's responsibility.
     
  8. Allan

    Allan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,902
    Likes Received:
    5
    Dale, I can honestly say, that is not something I can't agree with. :)
     
  9. Bro. Ruben

    Bro. Ruben New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2005
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sirs:

    My knowledge about the Bible is not yet broad; I don't even know much about being a Universalist or a Limited Atonement follower.

    However, I firmly placed my trust on Jesus. I believe that Jesus is God; it is not impossible and hard for God to be God and at the same time, man. I’m saying this to show that I entrust my faith and soul to Someone who’s reliable and steadfast.

    When Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life” – I believed that. He also said that “I and the Father are One” – I believed that, too.

    The Bible also says about redemption thru the blood and death of Jesus:

    Rom 3:23-25

    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
    25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--

    Eph 1:7

    7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace

    Col 1:13-14

    13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
    14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

    Heb 9:15

    15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance-- now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

    And I believed these verses, too.

    Universalist or Limited Atonement believer doesn't make me a better follower of Christ. I share the simple Gospel I heard and knew to others and they believed in Jesus, too. I guess God is happier to see His followers bringing more souls at His feet than be a better debater about His Word.

    God bless you all.
     
  10. nunatak

    nunatak New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes. Discipleship requires both faith and obedience.
     
  11. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    A correction would be that we do not bring souls to Christ.
    We are commanded to preach the gospel.
    The results are up to God.
    Remember that King Saul decided to sacrifice in a manner that God had not commanded.
    And he was told that it is better to obey than sacrifice.

    I believe that this principle applies here as well.
    It is NOT ok to just be sincere.
    We must worhip in spirit AND in truth.
    Sincereity (though important) is not enough by itself.
     
  12. JDale

    JDale Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    2
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The premise of the question is flawed in that it is a false dichotomy. There are NOT only two options (much as Calvinists wish to make it so): One is not either a "universalist" or else believes in the "limited atonement."

    Scripture teaches (quite clearly) that Christ "died for all" -- thus, the atonement which He provides is General (I purposefully avoid the term "universal" as it is a word that allows Calvinists with an ax to grind to accuse Arminians as "universalists").

    That Jesus "died for all" by no means suggests that "all are saved." Of course, if one believes scripture and Calvinism, one must necessarily believe in universalism...."God is not WILLING that any should perish..." (I am only half-heartedly tossing that out to 'get the goat' of the 5 pointers out there)...

    The atonement of Christ is "sufficient for all, but efficient for only those who believe." Thus, man indeed "limits" God's grace by rejecting His offer of free salvation. And, this does not threaten God's sovereignty in any way. He's a great God -- He foreknows who will and who won't receive Christ -- but the very REAL means and opportunity is presented by God to come to faith. Our failure to avail ourselves of the eternal promise is ours ALONE.
     
  13. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    JDale, hello!
    I will address this part:
    Then you believe in a form of limited atonement.
    not the Calvinist version by any means but you do believe in limited atonement.

    I believe in limited particular atonement.
    You believe in limited general atonement.

    I believe that particular sins of the elect were paid for at the cross specifically and then applied in time.
    You believe sin in general was paid for and then applied in specific in time to individuals who trust Christ.

    I believe that is a fair representation of your belief.
    If it is not then let me know.
     
  14. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    We actually use this verse in DEFENSE of Calvinism.


    I will add that it is God's preceptive will that all should come to repentance.
    It is His decree that all the elect WILL come to repentance.
     
  15. JDale

    JDale Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    2
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Quite fair Dale. You have represented my position well given the way you've framed it. Blessings...
     
  16. nunatak

    nunatak New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    Examining that verse from a different version, lets say, the NET Bible, seems to add something to the point Dale-C made regarding God's will, or desire, and His WILL, or decree.

    (2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
     
  17. IFB Mole

    IFB Mole New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2005
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have pondered this too. I mean if ALL the sins of ALL people have been paid for inclusively and without exception - that would include REJECTING Christ, unbelief in His sacrifice, faithlessness in Christ, nonacceptance of the free gift, etc. etc. - how could you go to hell for ANY sin if it was paid for?
     
  18. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to SFIC it is just because of their choice.
    Their sins are paid for but they choose to reject salvation.

    Makes no sense. I know.
     
  19. JDale

    JDale Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    2
    Faith:
    Baptist

    It makes PERFECT sense.

    If you want a candy bar, but have no money, and a stranger pays for it at the counter --but you leave it and walk away -- is the candy bar yours? It was bought and paid for -- for you! yet, you left it. You refused to take it. You do not enjoy the pleasures and joys of that wonderful chocolate! (I'm hungry!)

    Jesus paid for our sins. He has offered us His peace, His love, His salvation. He has held it out to us. If we reject it, that does not negate His grace, His redemption -- it makes US more culpable and responsible before Him. The tragedy is that MILLIONS reject Jesus every day. The ONLY way for His sacrifice to be efficacious is if we receive it -- which He enables us to do -- but does not FORCE us to do -- by His grace in the convicting and drawing of the Holy Spirit.

    And thank God for His grace!

    Blessings,

    JDale
     
  20. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, and my wife put a bag of reese's on the desk....

    But to answer you post:
    THat is all fine about heaven.
    In theory, you could refuse heaven.
    You could refuse the candy bar.
    But could the store owner make you pay for it again?
    That is the question.
     
Loading...