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Arizona Immigration Bill - What is objectionable

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by targus, Apr 27, 2010.

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  1. targus

    targus New Member

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    Why do you think that a person looses their rights as a citizen when they start a business?

    Why does the employer not have the same rights as any other person on the street?
     
    #101 targus, May 24, 2010
  2. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    No but a business (unless a sole priopietorship) is a different entity than a person. An employer does not have the right to hire an illegal alien.
     
    #102 Thinkingstuff, May 24, 2010
  3. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    Maybe I am wrong but I believe that (at least some) businesses are required by Federal statute to determine the residential status of their employees. Didn't Walmart get into trouble over this issue?
     
    #103 Mexdeaf, May 24, 2010
  4. targus

    targus New Member

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    I am not saying that anyone has a right to hire an illegal immigrant.

    I am asking you why you think that the gestapo police should be able to enter a business and "demand papers" with no proof that the business is hiring illegal immigrants.

    The poeple who incorporated or formed a partnership still have rights.

    Why do you want to ignore them?

    And you are ignoring my other questions.

    If someone stops a policeman and says "That guy is an illegal immigrant." are you ok with the policeman asking the accused illegal immigrant for proof of identity?

    If everyone knows who is hiring illegal immigrants than everyone should also be able to recognize those same illegal immigrants. Are you ok with asking them for ID based on that?
     
    #104 targus, May 24, 2010
  5. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    I suggest that proff is evident on business that hire illegals.
     
    #105 Thinkingstuff, May 24, 2010
  6. targus

    targus New Member

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    What proof?

    How do you know which companies are hiring illegal immigrants and which are not?

    Based on the color of the employees skin?

    Based on their accents?

    How?
     
    #106 targus, May 24, 2010
  7. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    based on how many employees they have and how many I9's are filled out. Thats a quick an easy way. Remember people working there are employees. That's just a simple one. You're just trying to give some one a free run. Its ok to use people like slaves and break the law but it even less ok to try to survive by going and earning more money than you can at home? Christian charity got to love it.
     
    #107 Thinkingstuff, May 24, 2010
  8. targus

    targus New Member

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    What about 1009 workers?

    And how do the police know how many employees there are and whether or not the I9's are on file until they have "demanded papers"?


    I haven't stated a position on this at all.

    I am just trying (in vain) to get you to see that what you are proposing for business owners is not different than what you have been railing against in the Arizona law.

    You want police to "demand papers" from businesses that could very well be operating completely legally under the guise of trying to find out if any businesses are hiring illegal immigrants.

    You have a double standard.

    You are in favor of rights for some - but not for all.
     
    #108 targus, May 24, 2010
  9. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    There is a big difference. One deminishes individual rights of the human being the other targets a business entity which is not a human being and subject to Government oversite, Audits, Irs review, etc...
     
    #109 Thinkingstuff, May 24, 2010
  10. targus

    targus New Member

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    But there is still due process.

    Why do you want to deny due process to people just because they have incorporated?

    Plenty of corporations are family owned and incorported for tax purposes.

    Why do you want to deny them their rights?
     
    #110 targus, May 24, 2010
  11. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    The question is do you want to get rid of the illegal immigrant problem or not? You deal with the disease not the symptom. And no one has done away with any corporation's rights when you cross check paper work that are regularily submitted to regulatory agencies to begin with. And just like any criminal investigation you can work on information provided by Eyewitness. No rights have been violated. Only existing laws are enforced. Arizon created new law to deal with the issue so there is a substantial difference.
     
    #111 Thinkingstuff, May 24, 2010
  12. targus

    targus New Member

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    Arizona did not create new law. The Arizona law is the same as Federal law that has been on the books since the mid 1950's.

    I am all in favor of enforcing immigration laws - but not just a few select ones as you are.

    I am in favor of enforcing ALL of them.

    So tell me - if an investigation of a business finds that illegal immigrants are working for a company - in addition to penalizing the company - are you in favor of deporting the illegal workers?
     
    #112 targus, May 24, 2010
  13. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Yes. ......
     
    #113 Thinkingstuff, May 24, 2010
  14. targus

    targus New Member

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    Great !

    Now if someone alerts local law enforcement that a particular individual is an illegal immigrant are you in favor of the police asking for ID...

    ...much like your example of the people reporting to the police the companies that are hiring illegal immigrants?
     
    #114 targus, May 24, 2010
  15. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    In the case of an investigation if a person has been identified as being illegal I have no issue. What I have always been afraid of is seeing a police officer walking up to the average person on the the street and saying "Vas ist dat?" "You look like you not belong here. Ok Heren show me your papers!"
     
    #115 Thinkingstuff, May 24, 2010
  16. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    You didn't ask me but YES- and their families (assuming they are illegals or the offspring of) also.
     
    #116 Mexdeaf, May 24, 2010
  17. targus

    targus New Member

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    But you have no problem with them walking in off the steet and saying "Heren show me your papers!" to a shop owner.
     
    #117 targus, May 24, 2010
  18. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    No. First of all they are required to file certain papers on a regular basis. They are responsible to assertaining the status (immigration/alien/resident status) of all employees. By operating in the the state of choice they are subject for reviews and audits by nature of being in business in those states and locations. SO there is nothing out of the ordinary going on. Depending on what industry they are in they must adhere to specific regulatory agencies doing spot inspections and the such.
     
    #118 Thinkingstuff, May 24, 2010
  19. targus

    targus New Member

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    So Mr. Smith running a small landscaping company from his house with ten employees can be subject to the police, IRS, INS and State auditors banging on his door demanding "papers".

    BTW - all of that paperwork and auditing and investigating does nothing to find illegal immigrant employees that are paid cash - with no paperwork.
     
    #119 targus, May 24, 2010
  20. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    You'd be supprised at things that can be found in financials, inventory record, etc... And yes especially if there is a reason to believe they've hired illegals.

    And think about this there is a smaller populace of employers thus you get the greatest affect by dealing with them directly than running around trying to find illegals.
     
    #120 Thinkingstuff, May 24, 2010
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