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Arminian, Calvinism and a third view

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Timtoolman, Mar 23, 2006.

  1. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Helen,

    You said...

    [Romans]
    Romans 3 does NOT teach that the Jews are not special! It teaches that their own righteousness is insufficient to justify them before God. ROM 9-11 teaches that they are indeed Very Special and the ONLY Nation chosen by God and that they will one day be redeemed by God as a nation! How can you say that?!?!
     
  2. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    Not only did I like the article in general, I liked the web site and added it to my list of favorites.

    As the article pointed out strongly there are those who take the extreme views of thier preferred theological view.These people are extremely dogmatic. You must believe and accept what they say.They don't have the smarts to know they will never win anybody over when they present thier my way or the hiway line of thinking,after all thiers IS the only correct view.
     
  3. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    to rjprince: I was not trying to deny that, sir. But in the CONTEXT of the chapter, Paul is telling them that although the Law has given them many great benefits, it does not confer on them any special standing in terms of salvation or whether or not they can fall into depravity. That is the point of the chapter.

    I know they were specially formed by God and that in order for us to see how God works in very specific manners and to produce the incarnate God for us. I am about the most NON anti-Semite I know! But the point of the chapter by Paul has to do with whether the law confers any special standing with God, and the point Paul is making is that it does not.

    Note what he says in 27+ -- "Where, then is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observng the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles, too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith."

    That is what Paul is trying to get across. If I misled you into thinking I was somehow expressing anti-Semitism I am most truly sorry and apologize.
     
  4. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    EXACTLY my point...balance is the key to all doctrine. being off balance in any area of doctrine is the result of bad theology. to bad that seems to be the norm :(

    EXACTLY [​IMG]
     
  5. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    Helen, your contextual arguments are all very interesting. However, verse 9 of chapter 3 (which immediately preceeds verses 10-18 in question) brings the context to Jews and Greeks all being under sin. As an illustration, Paul quotes the verses in question.

    In other words, verses 10-18 (there is none who seeks after God, included) is Paul's illustration of the universality of sin on all mankind - Jews and Greeks. In Romans 3, it has absolutely nothing to do with JUST the atheist. It is everyone.

    And why should we not use Romans 3 in witnessing? Is not the book of Romans Paul's explanation of the gospel? Are you saying that we should not use any of the gospel in witnessing? What should we use then?

    And of course it is the Holy Spirit's job to convict and convince. But how does He do it? Through the Word, of which Romans 3 is a part. I can't believe you are telling us not to use the Word of God, especially a section detailing man's lostness, in our witnessing efforts. Needless to say, you continue to amaze me.
     
  6. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I don't mind amazing you, but it is not our job to convict of sin. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. Romans 2 speaks of even those without the law who have consciences and God working through those consciences.

    The quotes Paul uses in verses 10-18 in Romans 3 are ALL, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, from portions of the Old Testament dealing with those who hate God, deny Him, and prey on fellow human beings. Because this is NOT the majority of unsaved people, we have to understand that Paul was using these verses to show the Jews that their own Scriptures showed they could be just as bad as any Gentile and they could not afford to boast over the Gentiles, which he mentions again in verse 27 of Chapter 3.

    If those verses from 10-18 were describing all of humanity, then we have a real problem with the many sections of the OT which refer to God as being a refuge for the widow and orphan and the defender of the homeless and poor. Would they not be all as horrid as those others? There is NO indication that they are, but rather that they are the prey upon which the wicked feed -- and it is those wicked people who are being detailed in Paul's quotes. One only needs to look up the quotes to see that.
     
  7. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    Sorry Helen you are wrong on this whole issue here is why.


    None Seek God? How Does One Come to Christ?


    I was asked "how do they seek God if the Scripture says "none seek God?"
    (from Romans 3:10-18)

    Romans 3:10-12 is a quote from Psalms 14:1-3: "1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. 2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one."

    What Paul was stating goes back to what he was saying prior, "who truly is righteous?" Paul is talking about the nature of man, no one is good of their own. Paul said "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) Paul said "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not." (Romans 7:18) Jesus said in Mark 10:18 no one is good but God alone. Paul was addressing the true understanding that no one is righteous of his or her own deeds or nature, but it comes through faith in Christ. (Romans 3:21-4:5)

    "How does one then come to Christ if none seek Him?" There are many Scriptures that make this clear. We on our own do not seek the Lord, it is Him who draws us unto Him. In John 1 the Apostle John wrote this: "9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God ." John states that Christ is the true Light that comes into the world that enlightens every man, and in that some will receive Him into their lives, and many will not. (Matthew 7:13-14) These that come to Him do not do it of their own doing, meaning they do not all of sudden say I want to know Jesus (God), but is it through the true Light which enlightens them. What enlightens people? God ultimately of course, but also through the preaching of the Word of God. That is what the Church preached, Christ crucified and risen, and that message is what opens their minds and hearts to receive the Word, and come to Christ.

    The way someone comes to Christ is also the leading of the Holy Spirit as Jesus taught. In John 16 Jesus was speaking to His disciples said: "8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged." (John 16:8-11) The Holy Spirit is the one who convict people of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and through Him testifying of Christ to people will come to the Lord. Man of himself can not do it, but God does not hold back from people the message and the light of who He is, and it is through the Spirit that people come to Jesus. It is a decision they make for themselves, they are not forced to believe, God is no respecter of persons, and gives all human responsibility. Jesus said: "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The Scriptures affirm that it is God who begins the work in our life, and we either accept it and commit our life to Him, or we reject Him. Paul said in Ephesians 1:13: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise." That is the message of Christ, and Paul says after they listened, and believed, they were sealed in Christ, the wonderful promise of eternal life. Paul said: "6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6) God is the one who leads us to Him, and in that when we come to Him we have the promise that He will perfect or complete it.

    None truly seek the Lord of their own, but it is God who comes to us, leads us to Him, and draws us to Him, and gives us the choice to accept Him or reject Him. The Lord said: "1 "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, `Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name. 2 "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts." (Isaiah 65:1-2) Paul quotes this in Romans 10:17-21 showing the love of God that He extended Himself to those who are disobedient and not seeking after Him. Jesus in Revelation 3:20 says "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." Jesus stands at the door of mankind's hearts, and knocks, and those who open the door Christ comes into their life.

    Acts 2:22-37: 22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God,
    you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him, `I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. 26 `THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; 27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. 28 `YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.' 29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: `THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, 35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."' 36
    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" Peter preached to the crowds on the day of Pentecost, testifying of Jesus being crucified and risen, and they were pierced in their hearts, and wanted to know Jesus personally. That is the Gospel, the Word of God that leads people to Christ, and is powerful: "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12) People come to God by His Word being preached, the Holy Spirit convicting them, and them receiving the message. No, there is none good, and none who seek God, for we all have fallen short to the glory of God, and it is God who says I am Here, come to Me.

    http://www.afcministry.com/none_seek_God_romans3.htm
     
  8. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    This section of the passage is why the previous section is so important to share. People need to see the dire situation they are in before they will see a need to repent.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: The "all" of verses 23-24 is the same "all" of verse 22. That is, it is all who believe. That way, the only ones who are justified freely by his grace are those who believe. If you think that verse 23-24 is talking about every person who has ever lived, then, again, you are a universalist who believes that every person who has ever lived is justified, because the "all" are the ones who are justified. Context, context, context.

    This is another example where the "all" is limited in scope to all of a particular group. It is clearly "all who believe," not all mankind.


    This is why I don't like the NIV. It should read, "God set him forth (presented him is ok) as a PROPITIATION by His blood, through faith." The NIV takes away the idea of satisfaction of God's wrath, which is inherant in the word "propitiation." If He was just a sacrifice of atonement (possible) then it is universal. BUT if He was a propitiation received through faith, then the satisfactory benefit of His death is limited to those who believe.

    See my above regarding the universal aspects of this passage - all who believe, not all mankind.


    Does Paul mention the convicting of the Holy Spirit in this passage? Well then, I guess that doesn't happen either. Does Paul mention the preaching of the gospel in this passage? Well then, I guess that doesn't happen either. Do you see yet how ridiculous your argument from silence is?

    We have plenty of other passages that tell us of the convicting of the Holy Spirit and the preaching of the gospel being necessary before anyone will believe, don't we? That is why we believe that. We also have plenty of other passages that tell us that only the elect will believe. That is why we believe that as well.

    The "all" here is Jews and Gentiles. He is making no argument, necessarily, about each individual. Except that they fall in the category of Jews or Gentiles.

     
  9. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Or perhaps is is the devil who has people thinking that what Christ did was not really quite enough to actually save anyone, and that they are ultimately saved because of a choice or a decision that they made.
     
  10. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Or perhaps is is the devil who has people thinking that what Christ did was not really quite enough to actually save anyone, and that they are ultimately saved because of a choice or a decision that they made. </font>[/QUOTE]And then they look back on that choice they made as if it was there salvation.
     
  11. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Or perhaps is is the devil who has people thinking that what Christ did was not really quite enough to actually save anyone, and that they are ultimately saved because of a choice or a decision that they made. </font>[/QUOTE]Could be Whatever, but I haven't seen one on this board state that. I could have missed it though. So why bring it up?
     
  12. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    But their consciences just bear them witness as to whether they have done good or evil. The conscience is never suggested as a means of coming to faith. AND the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God. If He just convicts men without the Word, why do we need to preach the gospel at all?

    Again, that is all very nice. But Paul doesn't say, "Hey guys, I'm talking about exactly what it says in these Psalms." He says, "Those Psalms are really referring to everyone - Jew and Gentile. They are all under sin (verse 9)."

    It doesn't necessarily matter where he got them from. What matters is how he uses them in the context of Romans 3. Many of the prophecies used of the Messiah make no sense if you try to bring in the exact meaning from the Old Testament, especially if they are taken from the Psalms. They only make sense if you take them in the context of the NT writing.

    Psalm 22 (My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?) was written by David to describe his own afflictions with his enemies and his feeling of rejection by God. If we take Helen's method of interpreting, then when Christ said these words on the cross, he was talking about people that afflicted David hundreds of years before. But that is ridiculous.

    But it IS all unsaved people. God says they are His enemies. You don't really understand what the Bible says about the lost. They are not neutral. They are at emnity with God.

    You are right, which is why these passages refer to both Jews and Gentiles (everone in those two groups). Oh, wait, that's everyone. :eek:

    Are there any widows, orphans, homeless, or poor who deny the existence of God? Your logic fails if you try to use those OT quotes to describe their human nature and their relationship to God.
     
  13. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    I have, Tim. It's not you, and it's not most non-Calvinists, but there are some.
     
  14. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    I forgot to add are not all those who reject God...FOOLS! duhhhh </font>[/QUOTE]If you created me a fool, then why blame/condemn me of being a fool for my foolish ideas???

    Ps 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

    Does God create "fools" just to have someone to keep satan company in hell??

    Hell wasn't made for man, God loved all sinner, without respect, while they were "ALL" still sinners, it wasn't God will for any to go there, and Jesus died for all sins to make it possible that "ALL" men "MIGHT BE" saved, even preaching to those who died prior to his coming.

    Any doctrine that teaches anything "LESS" than God loving all men and Jesus dying for "ALL SINS" denies that the love of God was expressed/extended to "ALL MEN", through Jesus,

    Personally, I'd be afraid to contradict the stated mission of God and Jesus.
     
  15. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Frenchy, you say no one can seek God on his own. And yet the Bible demands/commands people to seek Him:

    Glory in his holy name;
    let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.
    Look to the Lord and his strength;
    seek his face always.

    1 Chron. 16:10-11

    "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the god of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever."
    1 Chron. 28:9

    Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God. He removed the foreign altars and the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He commanded Judah to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, and to obey his laws and commands.
    2 Chron. 14:2-4

    The Spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Obed. He went out to meet Asa and said to him, "Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you."
    2 Chron. 15:1-2

    Josiah was eight yers old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem thirty-one yhears. He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and walked in the ways of his father David, not turning aside to the right or to the left. In the eighth year of his reign, while he was still young, he began to seek the God of his father David.
    2 Chron. 34:1-3a

    Those who know your name will trust in you,
    for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you.

    Psalm 9:10

    Please pay attention here to the type of person who does NOT seek God:

    In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak,
    who are caught in the schemes he devises.
    He boasts of the cravings of his heart;
    he blesses the greedy and reviles the Lord.
    In his pride the wicked does not seek him;
    in all this thoughts there is no room for God.

    Psalm 10:2-4

    The poor will eat and be satisfied;
    they who seek the Lord wil praise him --
    may your hearts live forever!

    Psalm 22:26

    The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.
    Psalm 34:10

    But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you;
    may those who love your salvation always say, "The Lord be exalted!"

    Psalm 40:16

    May those who hope in you not be disgraced because of me,
    O Lord, the Lord Almighty;
    ma;y those who seek you not be put to shame because of me,
    O God of Israel.

    .../the poor will see and be glad --
    you who seek God, may your hearts live!
    The Lord hears the needy and does not despise his captive people.

    Psalm 69:6, 32-33

    Cover their [the enemies of God, v.2] faces with shame
    so that men will seek your name, O Lord.

    Psalm 83:16

    Glory in his holy name;
    let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.
    Look to the Lord and his strength;
    seek his face always.

    Psalm 105:3-4

    Blessed are they who keep his statutes
    and seek him with all their heart.

    Psalm 119:2

    Evil men do not understand justice,
    but those who seek the Lord understand it fully./i]
    Proverbs 28:5

    Seek the Lord while he may be found;
    call on him while he is near.
    Let the wicked forsake his way
    and the evil man his thoughts.
    Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him,
    and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

    Isaiah 55:6-7

    "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the Lord...
    Jeremiah 29:13

    "For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, like a great lion to Judah.
    I will tear them to pieces and go away;
    I will carry them off, with no one to rescue them.
    Then I will go back to my place until they admit their guilt.
    And they will seek my face;
    in their misery, they will earnestly seek me."

    Hosea 5:14-15

    This is what the Lord says to the house of Israel:
    "Seek me and live"...Seek the Lord and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire.

    Amos 5:4, 6
    Note: read the rest of chapter 5 to see who it is the Lord is so angry with. You will find it is not with the average man...

    Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth,
    you who do what he commands.

    Zephaniah 2:3a

    "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. for everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."
    Matthew 7:7-8

    "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."
    That is PAUL speaking! Acts 17:26-27

    Now, WHY would Paul contradict all of Scripture and himself if he was saying in Romans 3 that no one seeks God? He was not saying that. He was reminding them of the evil men who do not seek God by quoting from the Scriptures they had all known since they were children. Scriptures all too many Christians today are totally ignorant of.
     
  16. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Your "Spiritual" understanding of scripture is seriously lacking.

    Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Jesus saves the "Conscienceness", or the soul, or "heart of a person", not the flesh, it remains a sinner as long as it lives.

    Jesus said it wasn't him speaking the words, but the Father (Spirit) in him, and if the spirit is not in the words you speak, you're just a noise like "sounding brass".

    Only the Spirit can speak to the spirit (soul) to "CONVICT" sinners of their sins.


    The flesh is "Forever" at emnity with God, never any "peace" between the two.

    Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    Believers are married to Jesus, not saved, no Husband,

    2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

    God/Jesus= Father, Church= Mother, no father/mother=orphans

    De 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother,
    Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    Poor=spiritually poor.

    Re 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

    Scripture goes a lot deeper than what you read on the "surface".
     
  17. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    And you, sir, are a gnostic, which was a heresy condemned in the 2nd century that developed out of Greek mythology.

    He also said, "I and the Father are one." How do you gnostics relate those two statements?

    Actually, your literal rendering of Scripture is lacking. It is love that is missing to make it "sounding brass" in 1 Corinthians 13, not the spirit.

    1. Are you all of a sudden, after mutiple posts against the concept of spirit and soul being the same, equating the two?

    2. I have said time and again that it is the Spirit that does the convicting, not us. BUT, He uses the Word of God, which is the (pay attention) Sword of the Spirit.

    Did you just say believers aren't saved?!!?

    Your ecclesiology sounds remarkably like Augustine, which was later corrupted by the Roman Catholic Church. You are sounding more Catholic all the time.

    So, Deut. 5:16 had nothing to do with earthly parents? Is that why Paul quotes it twice in his epistles relating to physical children and parents? Who doesn't understand how to interpret Scripture?

    In Matthew 5, yes. In the Old Testament, when talking about how to treat the poor and to leave food for them and to not abuse them, no.

    You are right that this verse is speaking metaphorically. But don't interpret metaphorically when the passage is not speaking that way. That is the mistake that the Reformation was trying to correct. The Catholic church had looked for the "deeper sense of meaning" in the Scripture and came up with all kinds of ridiculous stuff. Are you sure you don't go to mass on Sunday?
     
  18. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    And you, sir, are a gnostic, which was a heresy condemned in the 2nd century that developed out of Greek mythology.

    He also said, "I and the Father are one." How do you gnostics relate those two statements?

    Actually, your literal rendering of Scripture is lacking. It is love that is missing to make it "sounding brass" in 1 Corinthians 13, not the spirit.

    1. Are you all of a sudden, after mutiple posts against the concept of spirit and soul being the same, equating the two?

    2. I have said time and again that it is the Spirit that does the convicting, not us. BUT, He uses the Word of God, which is the (pay attention) Sword of the Spirit.

    Did you just say believers aren't saved?!!?

    Your ecclesiology sounds remarkably like Augustine, which was later corrupted by the Roman Catholic Church. You are sounding more Catholic all the time.

    So, Deut. 5:16 had nothing to do with earthly parents? Is that why Paul quotes it twice in his epistles relating to physical children and parents? Who doesn't understand how to interpret Scripture?

    In Matthew 5, yes. In the Old Testament, when talking about how to treat the poor and to leave food for them and to not abuse them, no.

    You are right that this verse is speaking metaphorically. But don't interpret metaphorically when the passage is not speaking that way. That is the mistake that the Reformation was trying to correct. The Catholic church had looked for the "deeper sense of meaning" in the Scripture and came up with all kinds of ridiculous stuff. Are you sure you don't go to mass on Sunday?
    </font>[/QUOTE]When you get around to understanding that this world and all the things of this world, flesh included, are only temporary and will soon "pass away", never to be remembered,

    you'll understand that "EVERYTHING" in scripture points/leads to the "SPIRITUAL", and the "ETERNITY" it represents,

    Scripture/God's focus isn't the "here/now", but "eternity".

    The "Bread" given to the "POOR" (spiritually) is the "Bread of life, Jesus,

    The "water" is the same water Jesus gave the woman at the well.

    Administering to the needs of flesh is only temporary, to the spirit they are "Eternal".

    Your interpretations only focus on the "Present".
     
  19. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    I agree, in principle, that many physical things represent spiritual truths and that God is more concerned with eternity than with earth.

    But, allow me to interpret some texts Me4Him style.

    Ephesians 6:1-3 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 "Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise: 3 "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

    Children=believers/Parents=God and Church
    Well with you = heavenly blessings
    Live long = eternal life
    On the earth either is talking only to Jews (if your a dispy) who for eternity remain on the earth OR is spiritualized into heaven.

    Only one problem with this method. IT AIN'T RIGHT! Paul is talking about physical children obeying physical parents.

    There are portions of the OT that have physical promises that are interpreted FOR US IN THE NEW TESTAMENT as being spiritual in meaning. The measuring of the temple in Ezekiel is interpreted in the NT as talking about the church, which is being built into a holy temple of the Lord.

    BUT we must not take spiritualizing into our own hands. We could come up with all kinds of weird things, like an 8th day representing the sin of man and having to do with the cross of Christ. Oh, wait! You've already done that!
     
  20. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    Don't assume that a command to do something either brings with it the ability to obey or suggests that the ability already exists.

    The command is given. We are told we can't keep it. Seems like that is what happened in Deuteronomy.

    He was not contradicting Scripture, he was quoting it.

    And the context of Romans 3 shows you he was.

    So, these Roman Christians (most of whom would have been Gentiles) knew the Scriptures since they were children? I think you forgot what letter we were reading. We weren't talking about Paul's letter to the Jerusalem church.

    Scriptures all too many Christians today are totally ignorant of. [/QUOTE]

    And yet we continue to quote them to you, even when you deny their meaning.
     
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