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Arminian, Calvinism and a third view

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Timtoolman, Mar 23, 2006.

  1. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    This earth and all it's "Systems", for lack of a better word, are "ALL" patterned after the "Spiritual".

    1. Husbands love your wife, how as Christ loved his bride the church,

    2. Man plants a seed in the "earth" for "natural bread,

    3. God planted a seed in the "earth" for Spiritual bread.

    4. The "seven day week" is Six days of rest another "day of rest". (MK)

    5. "Children" (of God) obey your "Parents", God is your Father, so "WHO" is your Mother, the Bride of Christ, the Church.

    You can "Honor/obey" Mom/Dad, and still go to hell, but you can't honor/obey your "father/Mother" and go to hell.


    The "list" is extermely "LONG", all of the spiritual is manifested here in the natural world in being "patterned" after the spiritual.

    Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,

    being understood by (seeing) the things that are made, (same pattern)

    even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    You have to understand the "Spiritual overtones" of the natural things to understand the scriptures/spiritual.

    1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
     
  2. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery New Member

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    I have been saying what the OP said for a while now you take the 2 sides put them in a blender and you get the truth...........
     
  3. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Not really, you just get mush.

    Best to really stick to Bible.
     
  4. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    There's only "ONE WAY" to get the "TRUTH", but, sadly, "HE" (Holy Ghost) has been put into "retirement" by many, part of the "falling away" I suppose. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  5. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    None Seek God? How Does One Come to Christ?


    I was asked "how do they seek God if the Scripture says "none seek God?"
    (from Romans 3:10-18)

    Romans 3:10-12 is a quote from Psalms 14:1-3: "1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. 2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one."

    What Paul was stating goes back to what he was saying prior, "who truly is righteous?" Paul is talking about the nature of man, no one is good of their own. Paul said "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) Paul said "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not." (Romans 7:18) Jesus said in Mark 10:18 no one is good but God alone. Paul was addressing the true understanding that no one is righteous of his or her own deeds or nature, but it comes through faith in Christ. (Romans 3:21-4:5)

    "How does one then come to Christ if none seek Him?" There are many Scriptures that make this clear. We on our own do not seek the Lord, it is Him who draws us unto Him. In John 1 the Apostle John wrote this: "9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God ." John states that Christ is the true Light that comes into the world that enlightens every man, and in that some will receive Him into their lives, and many will not. (Matthew 7:13-14) These that come to Him do not do it of their own doing, meaning they do not all of sudden say I want to know Jesus (God), but is it through the true Light which enlightens them. What enlightens people? God ultimately of course, but also through the preaching of the Word of God. That is what the Church preached, Christ crucified and risen, and that message is what opens their minds and hearts to receive the Word, and come to Christ.

    The way someone comes to Christ is also the leading of the Holy Spirit as Jesus taught. In John 16 Jesus was speaking to His disciples said: "8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged." (John 16:8-11) The Holy Spirit is the one who convict people of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and through Him testifying of Christ to people will come to the Lord. Man of himself can not do it, but God does not hold back from people the message and the light of who He is, and it is through the Spirit that people come to Jesus. It is a decision they make for themselves, they are not forced to believe, God is no respecter of persons, and gives all human responsibility. Jesus said: "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The Scriptures affirm that it is God who begins the work in our life, and we either accept it and commit our life to Him, or we reject Him. Paul said in Ephesians 1:13: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise." That is the message of Christ, and Paul says after they listened, and believed, they were sealed in Christ, the wonderful promise of eternal life. Paul said: "6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6) God is the one who leads us to Him, and in that when we come to Him we have the promise that He will perfect or complete it.

    None truly seek the Lord of their own, but it is God who comes to us, leads us to Him, and draws us to Him, and gives us the choice to accept Him or reject Him. The Lord said: "1 "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, `Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name. 2 "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts." (Isaiah 65:1-2) Paul quotes this in Romans 10:17-21 showing the love of God that He extended Himself to those who are disobedient and not seeking after Him. Jesus in Revelation 3:20 says "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." Jesus stands at the door of mankind's hearts, and knocks, and those who open the door Christ comes into their life.

    Acts 2:22-37: 22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God,
    you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him, `I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. 26 `THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; 27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. 28 `YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.' 29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: `THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, 35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."' 36
    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" Peter preached to the crowds on the day of Pentecost, testifying of Jesus being crucified and risen, and they were pierced in their hearts, and wanted to know Jesus personally. That is the Gospel, the Word of God that leads people to Christ, and is powerful: "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12) People come to God by His Word being preached, the Holy Spirit convicting them, and them receiving the message. No, there is none good, and none who seek God, for we all have fallen short to the glory of God, and it is God who says I am Here, come to Me.

    http://www.afcministry.com/none_seek_God_romans3.htm
     
  6. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    This is a good statement of how we as sinners come to know God and salvation. By preaching and the Holy Spirit. Salvation is offered to all but most will reject it.
    Those that do accept Him are born again of God (the Holy Spirit).
     
  7. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

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    Timtoolman,

    Thanks for a very good article. Probably the best writeup I have seen yet on the subject.

    It was particularily true about people misrepresenting what others believe in defending their own point of view.
     
  8. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    drfuss,

    I agree with you that Timtoolman has the best
    overview of the doctrine of man's faith and
    and God's "convincement".

    His following words sum it up very convincingly:

    "Inevitable faith diminishes man’s responsibility in a noble effort to glorify a sovereign God, but leaves man in a fatalistic situation. Responsible faith acknowledges man’s depravity and need for ‘all of grace’ but keeps man with a real will and full responsibility".

    Mel Miller
     
  9. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    "Inevitable faith diminishes man’s responsibility in a noble effort to glorify a sovereign God, but leaves man in a fatalistic situation. Responsible faith acknowledges man’s depravity and need for ‘all of grace’ but keeps man with a real will and full responsibility".

    1. Fatalism has NOTHING to do with calvinism, and if you understood calvinism, you would not make such a blasphemous accusation.

    2. You can not acknowledge man's depravity and keep "real" will (I assume by real will you mean libertarian will). Man's will must conform to his own depravity. It is bound to it, it is not truly "free". He makes choices freely, but only in accordance with his depraved desires. Depraved desires include the desire for human religioun. The things of God are foolishness to the natural man.
     
  10. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Glad you like it drfuss. It is one of the REAL problems I have with calvinist. Its as if I say something but what they heard is completely different. it boggles my mind at times.
     
  11. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    J.D in all honesty people have been making that claim since Calvin's days. Where are they getting it if not by the words calvinist use? (talking about fatalism)
     
  12. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    God's calling is that point in time when man must make the "decision", to "obey/disobey", and man has the "FREE WILL" to chose at that time.

    Many "ARE" called, few chosen.
     
  13. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Fate is a pagan god.

    All things are determined either by God or chance. Unless you can provide me with a third option, which one are you going with?

    Determinism and fixation have been a key issue, if not THE key issue, in both theology and philosophy from the beginning. Today, we are only carrying on the ancient argument. Either God has determined the end from the beginning, or he hasn't. There is no middle ground.

    If there is such an entity as eternity that exists apart from time, and we must as bible believers accept that because the bible says that time will end; if eternity exists, and God dwells in that realm, then all of history included from the beginning to the end of time must be fixed, and it must be fixed by God. Would you be willing to say, as a Christian, that things "just happen"?

    Calvinism does not teach a blind determinism (as you say, "fate". It teaches that an omnipotent omniscient holy and just God has determined, by his eternal mind and infinite judgement and ultimate purpose, NOT BY CHANCE, the end from the beginning of all things. It all comes out to his glory, and along the way, it is all for his glory.

    Man does not want to face the terrible fear-engendering fact that God is a God of wrath as well as love. He has DETERMINED that his wrath will be known, and therefore he has form vessels of dishonor, he being willing to shew both his mercy and his wrath on those vessels; his mercy by enduring their indolence with longsuffering, and his wrath in the eschaton whereby they give an account of themselves and are justly destroyed in perdition for their rebellion.

    God did not cause their rebellion. He made Adam with neutral capacity. Having been tempted by Satan, in accordance with God's plan, man made a free choice to disobey God, and Adam by human generation has passed sin on to all of mankind. So no one perishes unjustly. If any injustice exists, it's in that some of us do NOT go in to perdition, as we deserve.

    The question should not be "why doesn't God save everybody?", but rather, "why does God save anybody."

    So properly understood, it is a raw insult to accuse a calvinist of fatalism.
     
  14. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    People have been making false claims about Christianity since the earliest days of the church. This does not make these claims valid.
     
  15. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    It does no such thing. To say that God cannot predestine that man would freely choose to repent and believe is to attempt to put God into a box that is not nearly big enough. You call it fate; I call it grace and mercy.
     
  16. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    People have been making false claims about Christianity since the earliest days of the church. This does not make these claims valid. </font>[/QUOTE]Not the same over and over though Whatever. Nope.
     
  17. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    It does no such thing. To say that God cannot predestine that man would freely choose to repent and believe is to attempt to put God into a box that is not nearly big enough. You call it fate; I call it grace and mercy. </font>[/QUOTE]Your reply is not making sense to me. Are you saying that God did indeed predestine that man would freely choose to repent? That is not the calvinist stand. You have agrued that God must change (regenerate) The man. And God has chosen not to allow many men that chance.
     
  18. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    People have been making false claims about Christianity since the earliest days of the church. This does not make these claims valid. </font>[/QUOTE]Not the same over and over though Whatever. Nope. </font>[/QUOTE]So, the false claim that we worship a man who is still in the grave isn't being made today? The false claim that Christianity's concept of grace leads to antinomianism isn't still being made today? The false claim that Christianity just wants to force their beliefs on you isn't being made today?

    These were all claims that were made in the first few centuries about Christianity and are still being made today.
     
  19. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    BTW, there are a lot of false claims being made about Arminians as well. We all, no matter which side we are on, tend to misrepresent the other side by using extremes.

    I have been told that my god doesn't exist (making me an non-Christian idolator). I have been told that the I am a fatalist, which I most certainly am not. I, in turn, have told others they are Pelagians (when they probably aren't if they are allowed to explain their views).
     
  20. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    NOt like today and all through history on calvinism. It remains constant.
     
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