Assurance of salvation

I'm not sure this was clear in the thread, but my unemployment was not caused by this issue. It's just part of the whole situation.

 

No. Since when do we find Satan telling people - hey your not saved. You need to get right with God and repent. I thought that was the Holy Spirit's job, ya know - convict the world of sin, His righteousness, and the judgement to come.

Fruit is not what we determine it to be it is determined to be true fruit by God. There are things we see as good, and right but the truth is we don't know the persons heart. And if they did what they did, not in faith, then that 'good fruit' is nothing but a filthy rag. We look at the fruit to know it is good not just in that it was done, or they had knowledge.. but what God does with it.

This is what you see scripture stating. The 'things of God' are typically those religous aspects that allow the person to think they have 'done something' good (good fruits) but the truth is they have done nothing. The desire they have can be true, in that they desire to know God but it can also be true that they want to know God on their own terms and by their own conditions.

I find it very dangerous ground to tell someone who testifies to us that he knows he was not saved, but now has become one of God children - and someone comes along side and states, No your saved you just had doubts. Who are we to play the Holy Spirit and to know exactly who is and is not saved, was or was not saved? As a Pastor I tell everyone of the counsilors I train, NEVER second guess the work of the Holy Spirit. Don't pretend you know their heart or their salvation.

If they say they aren't saved then send them over to the side and let them deal with God. I am pretty sure He is 'God Enough' to either save them or assure them they are actaully His child but it is a matter of sin they must deal with.
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, Rom. 8:16

I find it odd that what God has done, you question as the working of Satan. (not necessarily negitively - just odd)
Only he knows if he was saved or not, and if he set is salvation into the hands of the Almighty God and God saved him - who are we, not knowing the truth of matter - to state 'it wasn't God'.

We base our assumption of a persons salvation upon the outward appearance of what people 'seem' to do. If they continue in the truth we know they have the truth. But if those who were with us (giving us no reason to doubt before) are no longer with us - Paul states they were really never one with us to begin with. Thus Only the person can know the TRUE condition of their heart when God the Holy Spirit deals with it.

I have never met a person yet, who sat down before God and through prayer came to know the truth of matter - of whether they are truly NOT His Child or just having doubts about their salvation because they are in some sin.

The best way to deal with it, is to let God deal with it.

 

All of the above is well said.

 

I second. Very good post!

 

In dealing with those who are being tormented about salvation it isn't our place to affirm their being saved. It is our place to offer the consolation that the troubled soul seeking that confirmation is that God will not leave anyone in that condition to remain in doubt. I believe Stehpan has done the right thing. I have doubted, I have sinned, Satan tormented me with that doubt. I went as far to ask God if I wasn't saved then why did he allow Satan to change me and deceive me too? I realised 2 COR 5:17 had far greater implications than the devil wanted me to know. He was trying to discourage me. Even some others christians are used by Satan to discourage others. God is bringing me past these things and people to better service for him. God has to bring us to the end of ourselves to get us to where he has for us to be. God confirms us to himself and the devil does every subtle thing to makes of no service to God. Let God rebuke the accuser, but don't fail to seek an answer Lest we fail of the grace of God,

 

When Satan tempts me to despair,
And tells me of the guilt within,
Upward I look and see Him there
Who made an end to all my sin.

Because the sinless Savior died,
My sinful soul is counted free.
For God the Just is satisfied
to look on Him and pardon me.

 

I think that you make a good point regarding the way of crippling a person's ministry. Of course, in my case it didn't matter because I was already out of ministry. I was a miserable failure at ministry, anyway, because I was trying to do things out of my own power. Moreover, my actions were primarily based out of what I perceived other people were thinking.

I gave to the church because I feared that I would be fired if I didn't. I read the Bible because I knew that I was expected to do so.

All my life I have craved acceptance, and I was willing to do almost anything to get it, whether with godly or ungodly people. I can honestly say that I constantly wondered why other people seemed to be so joyful at the things of God. I always tried to do the right things, going to church, reading my Bible, trying to pray, etc. hoping that I would find peace, but it never came. While I was working in church, I was a "good boy" for the most part because my job depended on it.

When I got out of church ministry, I didn't have that external restraint, and the proverbial "bottom" dropped out almost overnight. I was miserable doing ministry, but I also ended up being miserable when I wasn't in ministry, too.

I've always had an academic perspective on religion, being very interested in different theories and other matters, but I had no use for devotion. One of the things I liked about ministry was that I didn't have to listen to anyone preach, and I could ignore the music as I planned what I wanted to say. I could essentially go to church without having to go to church, and, to boot, I would get praise and accolades for doing so. Plus, it was a relatively easy job when you just "phone it in" so to speak. I didn't have a supervisor breathing down my neck, and I could just throw sermons together at the last minute because I have public speaking ability from academic training in debate and extemporaneous speech.

As a minister, I would go days without trying to pray at all. When I did pray, it was usually very selfish. I almost never prayed for anyone else, even my family. I tried to pray for the prayer list, but most of the time I just ignored it because it was so boring. If I did pray, it was a quick minute or so, and then I moved on.

If I am throwing away this ministry, then good riddance!

I knew the right words to say here on the BB because I could find some level of acceptance from others.

I've struggled with anger, deception, hatred, bitterness, sexual sin, and many others the entire time, and by struggled I mean wallowed in it.

All my so-called "believing" life, I have lived in fear that I would be found out for the fraud that I was. I was terrified that someone would find out. I was prideful, and I was fearful that by being exposed I would lose respect and acceptance.

My pride kept me from ever really going back to the basics to find out the root of my problem. I told myself; if I just try a little harder, I will find peace. Other people just must be doing this a little better. I know that God is supposed to give us power, but apparently something isn't working, so I must try harder myself. Of course, I'd say that in the morning, and by noon, I'd fall right back into the same rut.

When I finally swallowed my pride and admitted that there may be a deeper problem than just my effort, I went back to the Bible to read through passages I had read hundreds of times without real conviction. I read Romans 10:9-13, falling to my knees weeping hysterically. I knew that I had read a lot, studied a lot, but my pride had kept me from ever really confessing Christ as my Lord. In that moment, I knew God saved me and lifted a burden from my shoulders.

In the days following, I have had more energy to help my wife around the house. I am praying with a sincere heart, and I desire to seek God as a child, even if I never receive any accolades ever again. And, most importantly, I have peace in my soul.

 

I thank you for raising the points in this thread. It was helpful for me to be able to confess my story. I've kept a lot inside out of fear. I'm so glad that I'm free.

 

Stefan, sorry for mispelling your name earlier,

You see the importance of how you viewed your service before. Your story reminds me of "Sheffy" in a way of when he first tried to preach. Hope you see the movie if you haven't already, it's grand!

I know of a missionary who0 serves, I said SERVES, in Brazil. His name is Bro. Joe Edge. His testimony is much like yours. He started several churches in Brazil as a LOST man. Coming back to the US on furlow he got gloriously SAVED! He is now right back on the mission field doing exactly what he was before, just now as a child of God.

It is no strange thing for this type of thing to have happened. God has His purpose and his timing is perfect. I would say he allowed things to transpire in your life to strengthen you for future service. I say this not as a prophet but from experience and other's experiences as well.

May I encourage you to just let go of the past, reap the benefits from it and go forward!!!

You do understand that God had to put David in a field tending his father's sheep and Moses on the backside of nowhere to build in him what the Lord wanted out of their lives?

Go FORWARD, my Brother!

 

Yes, he can have the opportunity to turn a believers minstry upside down. However that work is not and can not be accomplished by prompting them to run to God for answers and repentance. How can one doubt if they come to God and have Him search their hearts? Granted I am refering to the continuation of doubt not just the moment.

I have enteracted with Stefan on various occassions and know many of his earlier postings, but your seeming to be assuming I am a Calvinist. The part about being unregenerate and at emnity is refering to those whom God has left to themselves. It is apparent that God had not done that but was continuously moving in his life to eventually bring him to the salvation he has recently and gloriously received.

First I didn't state he was trying to live out a works based salvation however if he did them apart from faith.. it was, is, and always will be, works based.
Regardless of your opinion, God over rules it and in doing so revealed to him he was as lost as a duck in snow storm. Praise God, now he is free and a true brother in CHrist.

First, no one told him to do such. That was his choice.
Second, it was both right and proper to send them back as they were given under false circumstances.

Please stop taking what I said so personally, which in fact was even addressing 'you' at all. Note exactly what I stated:

The 'you' was referencing my talking to the counselors, not you personally.

Really? Then why all the arguing about it?

Actually dear brother, I can state with certainty that his doubts about his salvation was the work of the Holy Spirit because he has repented and believed. Do you really mean to state this is the work of the Father of lies? To bring people to salvation

I don't understand your attitude and offence. Calm down and read what I was saying. I even qualified the statement as not something negitive (against you) just odd or a curiousity. I even stated that 'you question'. However I also never claimed I first hand knowledge of anything, that is your words you placed into my proverbial mouth. That aside, the knowledge I do have is from Stef himself and the contrast of his past experience and now, his disquiet before and the peace now. Beyond that, no man knows 'his' salvation. But his testimony is seemingly of one who has been born-again, and as such I call him brother.

If you would go back and read what I wrote again you would note that 'we' do not know the truth of the matter to say it wasn't God. However the converse of that IS true, in that Stef knows the truth of the matter to state it WAS God.

Yet, that 'is', of a type, works. If I may illistrate - You based his salvation upon what he has been posting prior, which in fact is you basing your opinion on his speach. IOW - He sounds like a believer. The same thing could be said of Judas. It is much like stating - he acts like a believer, and yet again the same thing could be said about Judas.

While I agree these things help us to evaluate whether one possibley saved or not, they are not the definitive markers stating that someone is saved, and I am sure you would agree.

Because he stated he was not and has just recently become saved. It is his own testimony of the working of God in his life. Again, while these things help us evaluate the possiblity of someone's salvation they are not to be used as the definitive acts proving someone is/was saved. The only definitive act is faith and repenence and this is only truly known to that person as God reveals it to them. Whether that they are saved but in sin, or that they are not saved and need to believe and repent.

I do not begrudge you that. But it is his statement that he was not saved prior and that God revealing this to him, he repented and is 'now' saved. Do you think he would know the difference between who he was before and now?
I agree that the issue should be looked at carefully, but no man should or can tell another - don't worry about it, I know your saved. We should find out where the issue lies and deal with that.

I have seen them and found out they were not truely saved, only after they God actaully DID save them. Their desires in all they did were self motivated and self seeking for their own praise. So on the outside it seemed they were great christians but in their hearts, nothing.
I should know, I was one.

There is no greater advise in this type of situation. Especially since no man can know the heart of another and secondly, if God is the one working on them and they seek Him - then He has the answer. And if God isn't the one working on them (whether their own guilt or Satan) and they seek God - Then again, He has the answer for them.

 

Joseph's brothers did evil to him; what the devil meant for evil, God meant for good! Why not just be happy Stefan is saved and stop with all the drama and ripping each other apart?

 

I agree. There is no way to judge a person's salvation by looking at their posts on Baptistboard. It is just not possible. Anybody can post on here and I mean anybody. We don't really know each other at all. All we know about our fellow posters is what we read and we assume what we read is true. A person can say, or in this case type, all the right things and still be lost. A person can know the Bible, attend church, preach sermons, teach sunday school, write theology books, and still be lost. Why? Because none of those things equals a relationship with Christ (Jn 17:2, Matt 7:21-23). If Stefan was unsure of his salvation, or if he came under conviction that his salvation was questionable, he did the only thing he could by running to the cross. Now he knows he is saved and his life, according to his testimony here on Baptistboard, is evidence of that. Trying to debate if he was saved before his recent "experience" is not profitable at all.

 

Amen!:thumbs:

 

I Am A Stranger Here Below
[Conflict L.M.]
(Old Baptist hymn)

I am a stranger here below,
And what I am 'tis hard to know;
I am so vile, so full of sin,
I fear that I'm not born again.

When I experience call to mind,
My understanding is so blind;
All feeling sense seems to be gone,
Which makes me fear that I am wrong.

I find myself out of the way,
My tho'ts are often gone astray;
Like one alone I seem to be
Oh! is there anyone like me?

It's seldom I can ever see
Myself as I would wish to be;
What I desire I can't attain,
From what I hate, I can't refrain.

My nature is so prone to sin,
Which makes my duty so unclean;
That when I count up all the cost,
Without free grace, I know I'm lost.