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AV1611 Translator Sidenotes 2: Matthew

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Ed Edwards, Feb 21, 2004.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Thank you, Brother Pre.
    God bless you.
    I need to go to work, will talk later.

    Pre: //I just thought anyone who strains at foot notes and side notes so much would at least be able to click on the "bookstore tab" //

    Tee hee. there you go again,
    your major form of exercise is
    "jumping to conclusions".
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    S.Matthew XIII:41 (KJV1611):

    The Sonne of man shall send
    forth his Angels, and thy shall gather
    out of his kingdome all ||things that offend,
    and them which doe iniquitie :


    Sidenote: ||OR. scandales.

    S.Matthew XIII:41 (KJV1611):

    The Sonne of man shall send
    forth his Angels, and thy shall gather
    out of his kingdome all scandales that offend,
    and them which doe iniquitie :


    Matthew 13:41 (NASB)

    The Son of Man will send
    forth His angels, and they will gather
    out of His kingdom all F316 stumbling blocks,
    and those who commit lawlessness,
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    FOOTNOTES:
    F316: Or {everything that is offensive}

    Honest translation is to document the
    variation of the translation dynamics.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Ed - I just looked up this verse in the Greek (1555 St Stephens that underlies the AV1611)

    The word "things" is NOT in the Bible! No word there at all.

    Interesting that the AV "added" to the Word of God when they simply could have said "all the offenses" which is EXACTLY what Jesus said.

    Panta ta skandala

    Odd choice of English even for 1611??
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    What would be odder still is to make one's
    doctrine (teaching) on the one word
    in the one verse that might be questionable.

    Fortunately the BB's SOF (statement of faith)
    has over a dozen doctrines each of which
    is based on a multitude of different
    scriptures and not confined to the corners
    of one edition of one version of one Bible.

    Still praying for Brother Dr. Bob can
    keep his pain level two or less most
    of most days. And praying for some
    good blessings from God to Brother
    Dr. Bob, his family, and his ministry
    this very day. Amen.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    S.Matthew XIIII:1-2 (KJV1611):

    At that time Herod the
    Tetrarch head of the
    fame of Jesus,
    2. And said vnto his
    seruants, This is Iohn
    the Baptist, hee is risen fromt he dead,
    and therefore mighty workes ||doe shew
    forth themselues in him.


    sidenote|| Or, are wrought by him

    S.Matthew XIIII:1-2 (KJV1611alt):

    At that time Herod the
    Tetrarch head of the
    fame of Jesus,
    2. And said vnto his
    seruants, This is Iohn
    the Baptist, hee is risen fromt he dead,
    and therefore mighty workesare
    wrought by him
    .


    So, was Herod impressed by the
    mighty works that were seen
    or the mighty works that were done?

    The NLT seem to go for stuff that was done:

    Matthew 24:2 (NLT)
    he said to his
    advisers, "This must be John
    the Baptist come back to life again!
    That is why he can do such miracles."

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    S.Matthew XIIII:30 (KJV1611):

    But when he saw the wind
    ||boysterous, he was afraid : and beginning
    to sinke, he cried, saying, Lord saue me.


    Sidenote: ||Or, strong.

    S.Matthew XIIII:30 (KJV1611alt):

    But when he saw the wind
    strong, he was afraid : and beginning
    to sinke, he cried, saying, Lord saue me.


    So did Peter get his faith shaken by
    a boysterous wind or a strong wind?
    Or does it really matter as both winds
    are nigh equal?

    The New American Standard Bible
    gets around the whole problem with
    "seeing the wind". That way we don't have
    to worry about wheather it was "stong"
    or "boysterous".

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    How does one "see" the wind? I know I can see the effects of the wind, I can see the effects of a boistrous wind, but i have never actually seen the wind.

    NasV: New advancements in storybook visualizations
     
  8. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    Ed,

    Works are more than just miracles. Miracles are part of many different works. Works are many things, that which also includes miracles. And doing them, would also include seeing them, which validates them being wrought. "Do such miracles" isn't exactly what is meant. It softens it up, and doesn't tell the whole thing. Sorry, Ed, I do not agree.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Interesting concept, Herod, the enemy of
    God, must speak God's truth.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    How cute, you assume
    that every translation is wrong
    save for the King James Translations.
    after some logical smoke and mirrors, you
    prove that every translation is wrong
    save for the King James Translations.
    Ah, the fast track of logic [​IMG]
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Mattthew 20:12 (KJV1769):

    Saying, These last have wrought F38 but one hour,
    and thou hast made them equal unto us,
    which have borne the burden and heat of the day.


    ---------------------------------------
    FOOTNOTES:
    F38: have wrought...: or, have continued one hour only

    Mattthew 20:12 (KJV1769alt):

    Saying, These last
    have continued one hour only ,
    and thou hast made them equal unto us,
    which have borne the burden and heat of the day.


    I worked yesterday as a technical document checker.
    I ran across the word "continued" several times.
    I never ran across the word "wrought".

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    Wrought means worked. Continued at what? Maybe now your "technical document checker" needs to get saved.

    Signed: Cutie Pie
     
  13. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Not interested in what "wrought" means. That's just one of the choices of the 1611 translators.

    God's WORD here is "poieo" which is an extremely primitive verb. It carries about 30 different meanings, all used somewhere in the AV! "Do, make, abide, agree, appoint, band together, be, bear, bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, content, continue, deal, without any delay, execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, keep, move, observe, ordain, perform, provide, purpose, put, secure, shew, shoot out, spend, take, tarry, work, or yield"

    Any one of which is a real and accurate and legitimate definition of God's WORD used here.

    KJVO's need to realize that one of the things Ed's study is showing is that even those esteemed men had various choices THAT ARE DIFFERENT than the KJV(whatever revision) that gives us none. The AV1611 is far more honest and accurate in translating than its offspring.
     
  14. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    So then do you ever wonder why the KJB translators made the decision to place the sidenote to the side and not in the text? I'll give you the hint: Because the sidenote didn't belong in the actual text, it is nothing more than a sidenote. Your conspiracy theory is maligned. I've noticed you do that often, suspect.

    I have never looked at the Word of God with suspicion in mind, I will not start now either, or ever. "Hath God said?"

    BTW, God's Word makes perfect sense, Ed's "KJV1611alt" alters the sense and often makes none; nonsense ought to be a familiar term.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I done gone and bought be a Hendrickson reprint
    of THE HOLY BIBLE, KING JAMES VERSION
    of 1611. This Hendrickson
    KJV1611 facsimile looks page for page,
    just like the Nelson KJV1611 facsimile.
    But,if you remember what "facsimile" means
    you can see this is to be expected.

    It cost a mere $24.99

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    S.Matthew XXIII:18 (KJV1611)

    And whosoeuer shall sweare by
    the Alter, it is nothing : but whosoeuer
    sweareth by the gift that is vpon it, he is
    ||guiltie.


    || Or, a debter, or bound

    S.Matthew XXIII:18 (KJV1611alt1)

    And whosoeuer shall sweare by
    the Alter, it is nothing : but whosoeuer
    sweareth by the gift that is vpon it, he is
    a debtor.


    S.Matthew XXIII:18 (KJV1611alt2)

    And whosoeuer shall sweare by
    the Alter, it is nothing : but whosoeuer
    sweareth by the gift that is vpon it, he is
    bound.


    Intresting, the NIV and the NASB here
    seem to be going off in different
    directions than the KJV1611 main text.
    Apparently "guilty" now (2004) means something
    different than it did in 1611.

    Matthew 23:14 (NASB)

    "And, `Whoever swears by the altar,
    that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering
    on it, he is obligated.'


    Because of the changing English Language,
    the NASB now gives a better understanding
    of the original message than does the KJV.
    The New King James Version (nKJV) felt
    it should also clarify here:

    Matthew 23:14 (nKJV):

    And, 'Whoever swears by the altar,
    it is nothing; but whoever swears
    by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'


    Even the translation of the KJV uses
    the third alternate:
    Matthew 23:14 (KJ21):

    And ye say, 'Whoever swears by the altar,
    it is nothing; but whosoever swears
    by the gift that is upon it, he is bound.'
     
  17. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

    Pay closer attention to details, if you're gonna post details.

    Sorry, the alternatives are simply wrong. Jesus was exposing the pharisees for their hypocritcal portrayal of offering gifts without any true repentence or obligation to fulfill their vow. They were making vows they had no intention to fulfill. Jesus saw right through their hypocrisy and pronounced them as guilty.

    Matthew 23: 18 is Jesus backing up John the Baptist when he confronted them as a generation of vipers, needing to bring forth meats worthy of repentence. True they were bound by their vow, also they were obligated to fulfill that vow, but in the light of it is better not to make a vow than break a vow, they are GUILTY.

    Jesus was preaching to them here, not making simple suggestions that they should do this and they should do that.
     
  18. Archangel7

    Archangel7 New Member

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    Presumably one "sees the wind" the same way Moses and the Israelites "saw the thunderings" and "the noise of the trumpet" --

    "And all the people SAW THE THUNDERINGS, and the lightnings, AND THE NOISE OF THE TRUMPET, and the mountain smoking: and when the people SAW it, they removed, and stood afar off" (Ex. 20:18, KJV).

    Then does that make the kjV "Old advancements in storybook visualizations?" [​IMG]
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Proof positive that
    you, Sir Precepts, debase the very
    version you call your Bible.
    Not only do you run down my NIV,
    you run down my KJV1611 and KJV1873.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    So God inspired (Mt 23:16 and 18) the word "opheilei" in all Greek texts. It means, without exception, "obligated, bound, debtor".

    There are two Greek words that mean "guilty" - enochos and hupodikos.

    But in 23:16 the AV1611 translates "opheilei" debtor and in 18 the same word as guilty.

    So what we're seeing is that the Anglicans got it right in v 16 and then changed it to a totally unrelated definition in v 18. That is a poser, isn't it?

    Can someone check the previous English versions that the AV revised? Maybe there were other Greek documents or a reason for such an odd change of translation.

    These guys were not capricious, so I'm looking for motive.
     
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