Baptism and the existence of a church

No I do not! I do not have to define it at all! The fact that Paul says there is "another gospel" which is accursed proves it exists. My argument rests upon that fact regardless of what gospel you make that application to. Whatever gospel YOU regard as applicable to this curse YOU cannot at the same time claim to be the church of Christ preaching that gospel.

Whatever church is killing Christians you cannot claim to be the "church of Christ" as that is defined by Christ to be a cheif character of the enemies of God not the church of Christ.

Revelation 17-21 contrasts two entities. They are both symbolized as women and as cities. The first is a polluted woman (whore) while the second is a pure woman (bride). The first is a worldly city (Rome) while the second is a heavenly city (New Jerusalem). The first has truly saved within it (Rev. 18:4) so does the second (Rev. 19:6-7). Neither are literal women or literal cities but represent the counter-opposite of each other. Define what one is literally and you define what the other is by contrast. The bride, heavenly city represents the Church of Christ, thus the whore, earthly city represents false instutionalized religion and true Christians are found in both.

You cannot make the "harlot" in Revelation one and the same as government as the woman rides on the beast and therefore is not the beast. You cannot restrict the Harlot to the first century because it is destroyed at the second coming of Christ by the ten kingdoms who join with the beast that John says have not yet risen during his day. This destruction occurs just before the coming of Christ to earth and therefore the harlot is existent now.

 

I never said a word about "we're the true Church." You did!!!! My point is simply to prove by Biblical doctrine the characteristics of what the Bible demands to distinguish a true church from a false church just as what the Bible demands to distinguish a true Christian from a false christian.

Your argument is no more valid for the first (true from false church) than the second (true from false Christian).

 

I have no clue where you get the idea that Jesus and John preached some other kind of gospel than what Peter preached (except for the tense - future versus past)???

Jesus bluntly restricts salvation to but one way BEFORE Penecost (Mt. 5:13-14) and that way is faith in him (Jn. 14:6) just as Peter limits it to the same way after Pentecost (Acts 4:12).

Your position contradicts Peter in Acts 10:43 and Paul in Acts 26:22-23 and the writer of hebrews (Heb. 4:2) and too many more scriptures to point out.

Do you preach a different gospel than Jesus preached in John 3:16-19? Do you preach another gospel than what John the Baptist preached in John 3:36? Do you understand that baptism is for only those who repent (Mt. 3:6-8) and believe in Christ (Acts 19:4)?

There are not two different kinds of human nature in the Bible one before the cross and one after with two different problems! The same gospel, the same Savior, the same cure for sin before the cross is the same after the cross. The gospel before the cross pointed foward to the cross and the same gospel after the cross points back.

Peter says that there is NTHER NAME GIVEN AMONG MEN UNDER HEAVEN (Acts 4:12) and yet you claim that both Jesus and John and all Old Testament prophets preached there was (Acts 10:43)?????????

Paul says he preached "NTHER THINGS" than what all the prophets preached (Acts 26:22-23) but yet you say he did.

Peter says that the gospel he preached is the same gospel all the prophets preached - Acts 10:43 but you say they didn't

The writer of hebrews says the same gospel preached in the wilderness during the time of Moses was the same gospel preached now by the apostles and those who followed them (Heb. 2:1-4; 4:2) but you say it wasn't????

 

Your assumptions are wrong. I am not a fullerite. However, that is precisely why the essentials must be defined from relatively non-essentials. Limited atonement is not made the explicit test for being the Lord's Church in the New Testament. However, the doctrine of justification by faith without works is made such a test (Gal. 1:8-9; 3:1-11). Wine versus grape juice is not made such a test by the scriptures. Washing feet is not made such a test by the Scriptures. Close or closed communion is not made to be such a test by the Scriptures.

All you have done from the beginning of this discussion is an attempt to divide and conqueor and yet you charge us with that when we are simply defining the Biblical essentials to distinguish between true and false.

 

You can get the same "love" in a Presbyterian, Congregational, Methodist, or outside of all churches just among true Christians wherever they are found.

It is amazing that you can argue that there is one way of Salvation and yet think God is the author of confusion on the way of service and accepts any way man wants to serve him.

My original question is simple - do you believe that any church of unbaptized believers/non-believers/mixed can be regarded as a true "church of Christ"?

My next question is very simple - what constitutes the necessary essentials for an administration to be called and recognized as scriptural baptism?

 

Who says it is limited to the name "Baptist"???? I didn't!

Any church is a true church if it meets the four basic essentials found in the Great commission.

1. Going with the same gospel Jesus preached (Jn. 3:1-21)
2. Administering the same baptism Jesus submitted to (Jn. 4:1-2; lk. 7:29-30)
3. Teaching the same essential faith and order delivered by Christ (Acts 2:42)
4. Reproduced from a church of like faith and order.

Each of these four basic categories must be expanded to the essential characteristics of each. What is "essential"? There are three characteristics of what I define as "essentials."

1. "Essentials" are defined as what the Scriptures either explicitly or implicitly demand are non-negotiable.

2, "Essential" are all doctrines and practices necessary to distinguish between Biblical Christianity and other world religions or predicted apostasies.

3. "Essential" are all those doctrines or practices that are required to sustain the two above definitions of "essential."

 

Again, you confuse salvation with Scriptural service. The Lord knows his among the Great harlot too (Rev. 18:4) but would you argue she is a true church of Christ because God knows those that are his within her???????????

 

Sooo, you think Christ is schizophrenic! He preaches one gospel to one Jew (Nicodemus - Jn. 3:1-21) but preaches another gospel to other Jews?????

Could it possibly be that you do not understand what Christ meant by the words preaching the "gospel of the kingdom" or preaching the kingdom of God????? Jesus continued preaching it after his resurrection (Acts 1:3). Paul preached the same kingdom gospel througout his missionary journies in the book of Acts (Acts 14:22; 19:8; 20:25; 28:23, 31).

The term "kingdom" refers to the person, realm, and rule of the king. John preached the good news that the King has come, is present and called on men to repent and believe in him (Acts 19:4; Jn. 1:29). Jesus preached the good news of that the King is present and that men should repent and believe in him (Jn. 3:16).

 

Let me illustrate principles 1-3. Non-negotiables are very clearly marked by the scriptures. For example, Gal. 1:8-9 defines any other gospel but the one preached by Paul as "accursed." For example, Luke 13:3,5 provides no other alternative to repentance but to perish. For example, John 3:3-5 provides no other option to see or enter the kingdom of heaven except by new birth. For example, Mt. 25:41 gives no other options but eternal life and eternal punishment. Every non-negotiable has essential non-negotiable characteristics as well. For example, the one and only gospel that is not accursed (Gal. 1:6-9) is by grace and grace cannot be defined to include works (Rom. 11:6).

Let me illustrate priniciple #2. Forgiveness of sins through only the Person and work of Jesus Christ separates Christianity from all other world religions. Salvation by grace through faith without works separates Biblical Christianity from all other world religions.

Let me illustrate principle #3 - The Old and New Testament as the final authority for doctrine and practice; its inspiration and preservation are essential to everything in principles #1-2. The doctrine of the New Testament Church and its ordinances as the "pillar and ground of the truth" or the custodian of the keys. The Great commission reproduction of practical Christianity until Christ comes again.

All those essentials of "othodoxy" by former fundementalists are included in principles #1-2 (virgin birth, absolute humanity and deity of Jesus Christ, the Trinity, the resurrection, eternal judgement, heaven and hell, etc.).

 

I fully realize and accept that the gospel since it was first preached in Genesis 3:15 by God and then preached by Abel the first prophet was given in a "seed" stage. I fully understand that progressive revelation has developed that "seed" stage with additional information until it was fulfilled completely in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I fully understand that prior to the cross the gospel was progressive and predictive but after the cross it was complete and fulfilled.

Peter makes it clear that the essentials for salvation were contained in the "seed" form right from the beginning and that nothing provided by progressive revelation changes that essential good news but only enhances it (Acts 10:43).

However, never at any time from Genesis to Revelation is there any other gospel of salvation that what was preached in Genesis 3:15 by God or will be preached until Jesus comes again. The King's presence and rule were announced by John the Baptist and Jesus. Jesus never came to set up a earthly kingdom but came to die as the sacrificial lamb. He denied from the beginning right to the halls of Pilot that his kingdom was of this world or that he had come to set up a visible kingdom. That kingdom was future and part of the prayer he taught his disciples ("thy kingdom come"). The rule of the King begins in the hearts of men, whereas the Temple administration and the church administrations were visible expressions of His authority until He comes again to reign and rule over this world.