Baptism

"He who has believed AND HAS BEEN BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." Mark 16:16. Do you like John 3:16 more than Mark 16:16?

 

You are very much correct in most of your statements.

Baptism is a must after Salvation.

Baptism is not the pre-requisite for the salvation.

One can go to the Heaven without Baptism ( e.g. Robber at the Cross)

Repentance is the pre-requisite for the Salvation

Obedience to the Commandments can be done only after one is born again.

Even before the Salvation, one can do something useful which is the Repentance.

Baptism is the most important starting point of all the obedience after salvation, one time experience after the salvation, which is the public declaration and confirmation of what the very person believed already, Death with Christ and Resurrection with Him.

Baptism doesn't bring the person to the Salvation. ( There can be many, many fake Christians who were baptized but not born again !)
Baptism is performed to the person who was already SAVED, who was already born again.

I don't find anything wrong in your statements at all, Sorry.:thumbs:

 

Ken, I am with you on all of this. I came to your conclusion in December of 1998.

If you want more evidence for our agreed view, go to Part4 on church unity study, linked www.geocities.com/steeledl/unity2.html .

Of course, "Mark 16:16" -- granting that material after Mark 16:8 is actually authentic -- does not negate John 3:16-8. "Mark 16:16" does not say `He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not or believeth and is baptized not shall be condemned.' Some people imagine six extra words where there are none.

 

However, would you not agree that repentance is part of belief? If a person really believes the Gospel, s/he knows s/he needs to be saved from sin, meaning that s/he knows sin is wrong. Would not acknowleding that /she needs to turn from it be part of believing the Gospel? I think so.

 

Darron, I'm having trouble following you on this. Could you try saying this a different way so I can figure out what you mean? Also, which six extra words are you referring to?

 

Repentance is very closely associated with belief, so close that it should be regarded as a part of belief. But it is not exactly the same thing. One believes and, on account of his belief, he then repents, i.e., rejects his old system of beliefs.

 

I took Darron to mean that Mark 16.16 does not say:

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe and he who believes but is not baptized will be condemned." ​

But it does say:

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.​

He quoted the verse from the AV/KJV, so the six extra words he added to that verse to make his point were:

or believeth and is baptized not ​

That is, the equivalent of my "he who believes but is not baptized" above.

 

Repentance follows belief - belief follows conviction.

John 16 the Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD -- but not all choose to follow that with BELIEF. For those that make that Choice "God GRANTS repentance".

 

This was your response to my statement that Obedience can start only after one is born again.

In human eyes, you may be correct. Jews are keeping the commandments even today. I know that very well as I worked for Jewish company and have many Jewish friends, and still have the fellowship with Messianic Jews.

However, they are not keeping the Law at all from God's point of view. If you talk with Jews, you can quickly find they have nothing to do with God, though they keep the commandments formally. They are not the men of God.

However, if you talk with Messianic Jews, they are like the Jews of the Early Church.

The non-Messianic, common Jews are like this man:

Mt 19
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

They believe that they are keeping all the commandments like this young Jew.

Even the Repentance is the same.

Before the Salvation, one can repent in groping after the Truth, but it is a kind of primitive type of Repentance with many errors in belief.
The true repentance is possible only with the assistance of Holy Spirit.
Even before the Holy Spirit enters a person, He works around him or her so that the person may be saved.
Repentance is the pre-requisite for the Salvation, but it continues even after the Salvation and is intensified with much more accuracy accuracy.

 

Ken,

Thank you for addressing my question. However, early on you said that obedience was a requirement to be saved. That's what promoted my question. So if you are going to continue to say that obedience is a requirement for salvation then baptism has to be included in that process.

Don't you agree?

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter seems pretty confident that baptism is a requirement.

So the question is, is obedience a requirement for someone to get saved? Or do you say obedience is a requirement to stay saved?

 

Romans 10 makes it clear that the person is saved at the moment they believe and then confess Christ.

 

Ken, I was going to disagree with this statement in your OP, with all of the verses pertaining to John preaching repentance for the remission of sins, until I read this verse,

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

Overall good points made about the subject.

 

I haven't followed the whole discussion - only picked up from the the beginning, so may be speaking out of turn.

"He who has believed AND HAS BEEN BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." Mark 16:16.

Then what John said, without mentioning baptism, with the same result: 'Saved!'

We have discoursed on this before. I have maintained just what is said in Mk16:16 - to be baptised with that baptism that shall have the result : 'Saved!'

Obviously - open before one's eyes stands it there: Baptised with the effect and guaranteed result of being saved. So One MUST be 'baptised', in order to be saved. John says the very same truth, but he makes no mention of baptism. How? Because John PRESUPPOSES THE baptism THAT saves as well as Mark does!

Now before one's eyes there is NO mention made of being baptised either by the Church or in water. Mark, just like John, presupposes THAT baptism that SAVES, and THAT baptism IS NOT a baptism with or in water or by or through the Church. BOTH Gospels suppose the ONE and SAME baptism that SAVES, and THAT baptism MUST be the baptism by God Himself with Himself - the Holy Spirit. NOWHERE does the Gospels suppose or mention a water-baptism that saves!

For that reason does Mk16:7 continue: "SIGNS will follow" - 'signs' of Apostleship, that no one after the Apostles is allowed to presume. The Church thinks far too much of itself telling people it must baptise them, and that, in water - whether as a means to salvation or, as a sign, 'merely'. Because that 'sign' that followed - their (own) baptism - was the prerogative of the Apostles only. A pretending Church is against Christ; not for Christ. Water-baptism USED to be a mark of Apostleship and of the Authenticity of the Gospel. With the Apostles no more, water baptism ceased. Water baptism may not be used or be claimed to be the baptism with the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit - for only God can administer that baptism and that Power.

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Repentance follows belief - belief follows conviction.

John 16 the Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD -- but not all choose to follow that with BELIEF. For those that make that Choice "God GRANTS repentance".

Romans 10 makes it clear that the person is saved at the moment they believe and then confess Christ.

GE:

Absolutely!

Yet, what is BEHIND the person believing and confessing? There's what counts!

There are instances without count of such statements, the best-known of course, John 3:16. "If it is found someone believes in Him -- that one shall not perish, but, it is found, that one, has everlasting life already."

Here we have another of that Subjunctive of absolute a priori fact! He 'may' not only be saved, but for ever has been saved!

 

GE:


Saying, "Peter seems pretty confident that baptism is a requirement", is not correct, nor true! 'Peter seems pretty confident that to "be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins", is correct, and the only truth contained in his saying.

See in exactly this the very method and means by which Peter, as it were, 'baptised', the (believing) hearers "IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ"! His method and his means were Peter's proclamation - his 'going' and his 'preaching' "The Name of Jesus Christ"! By their hearing and receiving of the WORD -- of God! -, they were 'baptised'. Peter's was the only way remaining for the Church to also 'baptise'.

 

One can only believe by that, and in, that eternal life in which one already stands by grace, and by grace, already lives.