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Baptist No longer a Church Democracy, We Are Now a Theocracy?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by govteach51, Jan 29, 2012.

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  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    There is so much wrong with this that it would take a book to straighten it out. :( The bible is the right book but when it is rejected for one's own ideas it become useless.
     
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I suggest that you get the Bible and straighten yourself out.

    Everything I wrote is directly supported by Scriptures.

    That you don't know that it is supported by the Scriptures is a bit alarming.
     
  3. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Well if it is supported by scripture I guess you can give us those scriptures that support each thing you stated, correct?
     
  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Nope, I don't think I will.

    It is you that stated it wasn't Biblical.

    Support your statement with what you think is the truth.

    JUST as I showed that Titus wasn't going around choosing the elders, but was ordaining the elders and that was what Paul "appointed" Titus to do, YOU are obliged to demonstrate how that was NOT the case.

    I wait for your response.

    Start by showing how the Apostles were not chosen by the assembly and ordained by the Apostles in Acts.

    Then move on to how the Elders were not chosen by the assembly and ordained in the writings of Paul.

    You want to demonstrate I am not Scriptural. I just gave the Scriptural proof you demanded. See what you can do to refute it.


    Prove it.
     
  5. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Appreciate the response. To understand your thinking about the subject helps clarify the statements you've made.

    I greatly appreciate your last comments about accountability. All too often I've seen churches that the pastor holds himself only accountable to himself, and those churches typically die a tragic death, usually to the pain and heartache and even finances of the members of the church. We elevate men to a position not intended (e.g., the people wanted a king; God said that wasn't in His plan, but to appease them He gave them Saul, and look how that turned out), and we tend to forget that such men have the same shortcomings that each and every member does (look at 1 Kings 13 and how the old prophet caused the younger man of God to fall).

    I've recently seen a pastor who held a church vote; one of the staff members, who also works in the church school, voted against the subject. She was later called into his office and told that as long as she was a staff member, that she basically was not allowed to publicly show any dissent towards the pastor's endeavors.

    These experiences led to my asking you for clarification on your understanding of the priesthood of the believer/soul competency/soul liberty/etc.
     
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I have been on a staff that had to "toe the preacher's line" or be fired.

    I have also witnessed some churches who each year have a "vote of confidence" on the pastor.

    Both extremes are not biblical and it is a shame that in the typical Baptist church there is not accountability called for among denominational assemblies in which each assembly helps the other assembly in matters of faith and practice.
     
  7. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

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    Unanimous consent. OUr elders do not approve anything unless they are unanimous in consenting to the proposal. This is not a vote, but a dealing with each other and any of the Elders could raise issues. Because we respect each one tremendously, we respect their opinion. It is not about getting the majority to ram it through, but about dealing with the issues we are facing.
     
  8. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Rather what one might expect from a group of godly, gospel-centered leaders who are looking out for the best interests of the flock that God has given them to safeguard.

    Of course, there will always be those who disagree and greatly prefer the democratic process where it is every man and woman for him or herself. That seems so counterproductive for there -- by example -- we find most fighting in any given congregation, and little by way of actual productive exercise, for there is always someone who "loses" and therefor will not do what the "winners" ask them to do.

    I've seen both ways -- elder-led in a congregational polity church and pure democratic congregation-led church -- and I would take the elder-led congregation EVERY TIME. We should recall the biblical mandates to be an elder and also the biblical admonitions for those who THINK they wish to be elders as well. It should not be a popularity contest to become an elder as it often is for the deacons who comprise the deacon board in most baptistic churches.
     
  9. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Is your church a Baptist church?
     
  10. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

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    We are Baptistic, practicing believer's Baptism only. We do not have "Baptist" in the name nor are we affiliated with any denomination or formalized fellowship groups.
     
  11. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    As much as I like your posts if that is true then aren't you violating the BB rules for posting in a Baptist only forum? Baptizing people by submersion does not make someone a Baptist. To be a Baptist you have to be affiliated with a Baptist church.
     
  12. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

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    The question is, "What is a Baptist Church?" Is having the name "Baptist" in a church name the difference between being a Baptist or not? We have considered ourselves Independent, but does that mean that we cannot be Baptists? I liken us to Spurgeon's Church, Met Tab. Met Tab held to Baptist Doctrine but, after leaving the Baptist Union through conviction, was independent of any organization as a result of conviction. I think our church embraces Spurgeon more than most people on this board, but like Met Tab we do not include Baptist in our name or have formal affiliations. Thus, I think we are Baptistic. However, we are not among the modern popular brands.
     
    #52 Ruiz, Jan 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2012
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I suppose I have witness elder ruined, preacher ruined, and deacon ruined churches.

    But I have NEVER seen a congregation ruined church.

    Assembly members who have been grounded in the Scriptures are not ruined by leadership or the communist church would have been ruined by leadership, but Christ's church thrived.

    When the congregation is not involved and a hierarchical system is installed it can and throughout the convention and independent churches has historically been problematic.

    In an attempt to limit the problem, some churches (even Baptist) are attempting elder boards, but soon these historically become the ruling body and the membership is ignored.

    I have posted the Scriptural view of how the elder and deacons are to be selected and ordaining.

    FAL made a vain attempt to dispute the post, but when challenged was unable to produce any viable Scripture.

    The authority of the church is held by Christ - alone.

    The members of the assembly as given opportunity and need may under the leadership appoint such help of elders and deacons. But these are not offices of hierarchy but of helps to the members of the assembly.

    That is what the Scriptures teach.

    When that perspective is taken away, inappropriate behavior and action by staff, elder, deacon, and power brokers are no longer in far left field.
     
  14. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    The rub here is that though there is no set criteria by which one should say this is or this isn't Baptist.

    The last church I served in didn't have Baptist in their name and was independent, but supported Baptist missionaries exclusively.

    Did you know it only costs (technically) $10 to be a Southern Baptist Church?

    The ambiguous nature of Baptist is not something easily reconciled. I mean we have a ton of IFB folks around here, they have no formal denomination they are part of. If the church I serve doesn't have Baptist in their name but practices the Baptist distinctives then I'm a Baptist. That would be my position. :)
     
  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    That the believer is immersed is a Baptist distinctive in itself. Other groups may allow some other form of baptism, but Baptists generally speaking (with the exception of health or physical/emotional overriding difficulty) immerse.

    There are other baptist distinctions, but most pew sitters don't know any and will embrace any whim that has the convention or independent group "authorization."
     
  16. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    A "Baptist" for use of the BB here is an active member of a Baptist Church. That church many not have "Baptist" in the name, but it is in the constitution that it is "Baptist".

    Example: My present church is "Sovereign Grace Church". Is it "Baptist"? Yes. In the official by laws it is "Sovereign Grace Church. A Reformed Baptist Congregation".

    So, not an active member of a "Baptist" Church? then please do not post in the section of the BB "for Baptists only" . . because you are not.

    Hard nosed. We have some "Baptist" churches that are so liberal and vile that I want to scream at them for using the name. We have some "Baptist" churches that are cult-like in practice or not following "Baptist" polity and church government at all. BUT they are still under the wide branches of "Baptist".

    BTW, baptistic doesn't count. Like being asked if you are a Republican to vote in the Florida Republican primary. You can't say, "I'm conservative and I like Reagan" and get in. Can't say, "I'm independent and unaffiliated because most Republicans are crooks" and get a vote.

    Either you ARE a Baptist or PLEASE GET OFF THE BAPTIST ONLY DISCUSSION. Half of the BB is for "All Christians". Welcome there.
     
  17. michael-acts17:11

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    I have a question that is not meant to be argumentative. Considering the wide range of Baptist churches, denominations & organizations which differ so greatly on so many issues, how do we define Baptist & who has the authority to proclaim that a church or person is not Baptist? I am not questioning your authority to define "Baptist" within the confines of BB rules. My question concerns churches & persons in the "real" world.
     
  18. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    It's a valid question; but I propose to you that what Dr. Bob is saying is that, similar to soul competency, it's up to the individual to self-identify. Easily proven non-baptists have been identified by the rest of us and asked to post elsewhere; others have to go with their own conscience as to whether they're abiding by the rules or misrepresenting themselves.
     
  19. govteach51

    govteach51 New Member

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    Thank you, a lot of the posts I have read here since I joined are anything but Baptist. There room for disagreement, but from some people's historical viewpoint, they were never any form of Baptist.
     
  20. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I sent an email to a friend of mine. He is an American Missionary to the Germans. (my email is first)

    Gesendet: Montag, 30. Januar 2012 00:12
    Betreff: Church question Attn: Sale Sigafoos




    Dale,

    I had a question for you.


    I have a quick question. A subject was brought up on our discussion board.([post # 5) It was stated that democracy in a Baptist church is basically an American invention..



    I was wondering what your thoughts were. How is the government of Bible churches in Germany handled.



    Is is more "Shepard" led or democratic action?


    **************************

    Hi Bob,

    Yes this is typical of American churches. Here in Germany we do not see democracy as biblical. Here it is Shepherd led. We have elders who are responsible for the church and watch over the teaching and also the spiritual end of things. We also have deacons who do more of the service ministry and see to the general needs of our people. In church meetings we bring things up to the church but there is no voting. We can see if they are for or against something. If we see they are not for what the leadership has thought over we take it back and present it to them another time with some new changes or thoughts.

    In regards to leadership we have taught through two books which are the basis for good biblical leadership. We have had Alexander Strauch in our conferences and find his thoughts in this area are very biblically based. Here are the books which we train or men with.
    1. Biblical Eldership by Alexander Strauch (An Urgent call to restore biblical church leadership. This also has a work book.
    2. Minister of mercy by Alexander Strauch (The New Testament Deacon. This also has a work book.

    I know of many Bible and Baptist churches in the USA who are changed over to this type of church government. Democracy can be dangerous in that you have spiritual and non spiritual people voting. Often it goes to a majority who are not being led of the Lord.

    I trust this helps.
     
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