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Featured BAPTIST SUCCESSION

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by 37818, Aug 29, 2022.

  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    A distinction without a difference.

    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck …
     
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  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, “echo chambers” (where everyone agrees on everything) are actually boring.
     
  3. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    THEN it could be Rich Little!
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I wouldn't say "without a difference". Baptistic churches prior to the 16th century existed. But they held a "Christus Victor" view of the Atonement (most today do not). They also had other distinctions (e.g., a separation doctrine, no oaths, ect.).

    I think it's fair to say they were Baptist in what makes Baptists distinct. But I am not so sure they would view most Baptists as holding what made them distinctive.
     
  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    See, conversation are more interesting when people get to be WRONG. :Biggrin ;)

    (Christus Victor is not a disqualification.)
    (Most Baptist Churches are suspicions of other Baptist Churches ... so they would fit right in !
    ) :)
     
    #45 atpollard, Nov 7, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2022
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That claim, as such, is an early 20th century interpretation.
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The sole explicit succession is the Apostolic being the New Testament documents [the 27 books].
     
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, it isn't. We know Anabaptist theologies (while groups differed we know their basic theology).
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Who is giving this Anabaptist reference?
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That would be me.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Anabaptists that we might know anything about from the 16th century. The Christus Victor as a named concept didn't exist until 20th century.
     
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Take the "big name" of each of the groups listed in the pre-1600 groups listed and ask Would our church have this person speak in our worship? 100% NO WAY.

    In some ways they were baptistic, in others? Cannot find a single group listed that would qualify as a Baptist church.

    Just because a group held views akin to the main Baptist distinctives today does NOT mean they can be label as "Baptist".

    And when did the promotion of "two officers: pastor and deacon" and the "congregational government" become Baptist distinctives even today? My church had elders, one of which did pastoral work, one did preaching/teaching, one did pr/media/financial as these elders were gifted. And we were an elder-led church, not a "democracy" (congregation votes, majority rule) which I do not see in the NT
     
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Scratch anything from the conversation of, "Baptist", with regard to History we're looking at
    that is not,

    All others are eliminated.


    Same here. An elder-led church does not have Christ as her head. She has, "elders".
     
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    A mob-led church (remember, a democracy is mob rule just a small step from total anarchy in that there is membership for a democracy. It was the reason God gave elders to lead a church as under-Shepherds to our Lord, the Chief Shepherd. Shepherds lead, they don't take a vote.

    In the Baptist rush away from papacy, bishops, vicars and denominational hierarchy, we jump to the other extreme - rule of the congregation. And this is a type of polity that is fine as long as that is LED by the elders.

    Brother, maybe we should start a new thread on this topic. I'm fine to debate the pro/con of pure democracy in a church v elder leadership
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "

    From the comment; "Take the "big name" of each of the groups listed in the pre-1600 groups listed and ask Would our church have this person speak in our worship?"

    Here is some old fashion preaching for you, preached to an autonomous congregation.

    What is Acceptable Baptist and Unacceptable Baptism? - Baptist Because
     
  16. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Dr Bob
    Based on a democrat vote - I just did so! Link for the new thread
     
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Enabler of Succession is THE HOLY GHOST
    WHO IS THE ADMINISTRATOR
    OR MANAGER OF EACH PARTICULAR
    BAPTIST-BELIEVING CHURCH.


    Baptist History Homepage



    Outlines in Systematic Theology
    THE ORGANIZATION OF A CHURCH

    Colossians 1:18 and Ephesians 1:22-23
    By Berlin Hisel

    I. JESUS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF EACH CHURCH.
    A. Each Church Is a Sovereignty,
    Recognizing No King and No Ruler, But Christ.

    1. All New Testament churches sustain the same relationship to Christ.
    2. As it is the duty of the human body
    to obey every impulse of the head,
    so it is in the church's relationship with Christ
    (l Corinthians 12:12-31).
    B. The New Testament Church Is Christ-Centered.

    1. Christ alone is the Head of the church
    (Colossians 1:18 and Ephesians 1:22-23).
    2. Christ alone is our Advocate with God (l John 2:1).
    3. Christ alone is our Mediator (l Timothy 2:5).
    4. Christ alone is our High Priest Intercessor (Hebrews 7:25)
    5. Christ alone is the church's Foundation (l Corinthians 3:11)
    II. THE HOLY GHOST IS THE ADMINISTRATOR OR MANAGER OF EACH CHURCH.

    A. Each Church Settles All Matters Under the Direction of the Holy Ghost, Without Interference From Other Churches.
    B. The New Testament Plainly Teaches the Work of the Holy Spirit.

    1. He directs and leads (Romans 8:14).
    2. He calls to special service (Acts 13:2-4).
    3. He guides in service (Acts 8:2.6-29).
    4. He equips for service.
    a. He illuminates (l Corinthians 2:12-14).
    b. He instructs (John 16:13-14).
    c. He empowers (l Thessalonians 1:5).
    Note: All of the work of the Holy Ghost is in agreement with the Bible, the Word of God. No deviation from the Word of God is of God.

    III. THE PASTOR IS THE OVERSEER OR SUPERINTENDENT IN CHARGE OF THE WORK.

    Note: Only four (4) general officers are mentioned in the structural organization of the church. These are found in Ephesians 4:11. They are:

    (1) Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, and Pastors who are teachers.
    (2) The work of the Apostles and Prophets has been completed.
    (3) Thus, today, we have only two actively in the church. The Evangelist is what we know as a "Missionary" who goes about extending the work of Jesus, either near or far building churches, and the Pastor-Teacher.
    A. Note the Pastor. In the New Testament, the office of Pastor was described by five words, each signifying a peculiar aspect of the office and a particular duty of the Pastor. These are:

    1. The Pastor is called "Elder" in I Timothy 5:1? and Acts 11:30 - This title refers to the position of the Pastor as leader in the aspect of conducting business.
    2. The Pastor is called "Bishop." This term is used five times in the New Testament.[p. 218]
    a. This title comes from the word episkopos and it means "a superintendent; officer in charge of or the overseer of a working force" (Titus l:7 and I Peter 2:25).
    b. By comparing Scripture with Scripture, it is obvious that both Elder and Bishop designated the same office (l Timothy 3:1-2, Titus l:5-7 and Acbs 20:28-29).
    3. The Pastor is called the Shepherd of a flock in I Peter 5:2-4 because this title implies that the Pastor is to have the same relationship to his congregation as the Shepherd does to the flock.


    4. The Pastor is called the "Preacher" in I Timothy 2:?, II Timothy 1:11 and II Peter 2:5 because the Pastor is to proclaim God's Word, through preaching.
    5. The Pastor is called the "Teacher" in I Corinthians 12:2 and Ephesians 4:11 because the Pastor is to teach the whole counsel of God as the Spirit leads and according to the need He leads.
    Note: The qualifications for Pastor are given in I Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus l:5-8.

    Note: The duties of the Pastor are given in I Peter 5:2-3, Titus 1:9, Acts 6:4, II Timothy 4:2, James 5:l4, and II Timothy 4:5, The duties of the Pastor are numerous and varied.



    6. Note the church's duty to the Pastor:
    a. The church should love and pray for the Pastor,
    b. The church should support him (l Corinthians 9:7-l4 and I Timothy 5:18).
    c. The church should respect him (I Timothy 5:19).
    d. The church should remember him (Hebrews 13:7).
    e. The church should obey him (Hebrews 13:17).
    B. Note the Office of the Deacons. This is the only other office of ordination in the New Testament church.



    1. The origin of Deacons (Acts 6:1-7). At first, the Pastors handled all the affairs in administering relief to the poor and other temporal duties. This became too much of a task, taking too much time from the more needful duties, They were no longer able to pray and study as they should. Seven men were appointed to care for the relief of the poor. These were the first Deacons.
    2. The meaning of the word Deacon is from Diakonos meaning "an attendant or a table waiter, a servant."
    3. The qualifications for a Deacon is not much different than that of the Pastor.


    4. Note the duties of a Deacon (Acts 6:2-3).
    a. The only duties given in the Scriptures for Deacons is found here,
    (1)They were appointed over the task of administering relief.
    (2)They were to make the Pastor's work easier by relieving him.
    b. Other duties have been assumed or given by the various churches, but no other Scriptural duty is found.
    c. All New Testament Deacons were soul winners and great men of God.


    5. Note what Deacons are not.
    a. They are not "church directors, nor a board of directors."
    b. They are not just a figurehead, but to be elected for service or we don't need them.
    c. The office of Deacon is not an honorary office.
    d. The Deacon is not a "church boss" or a "Pastor's boss."
    e. The Deacon is not to be chosen because of social or financial position. The Deacon should be the moat trusted and. Spiritual man in the church.[p. 219]

    Note: "There is not one example in Scripture in support of the 'Board of Deacons.' There is not one verse in Scripture in all the Word of God to indicate that the Deacons of the New Testament churches ever met as a body for anything. And it is absolutely certain that they never met to give instructions to the Pastor. They recognized that he should get his orders from the Lord and deliver them, whether they pleased the Deacons or anybody else. A church should have several men who would qualify for Deacon" (J. H. Melton).

    ======[From Berlin Hisel, Outlines in Systematic Theology, nd.,
    reprinted by Central Baptist Church, Marion, KY. Used with permission; scanned by Jim Duvall.]

    Hisel Ecclesiology Index
    Baptist History Homepage


    ...
    Baptist History Notebook
    By Berlin Hisel
     
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Baptist History Homepage



    THE HOLY SPIRIT ADMINISTERS TO THE CHURCHES

    By Berlin Hisel

    Introduction: The Holy Spirit Is "the Vicar of Christ."

    Until the Lord Returns,
    the Spirit Has Charge of the Administration of the Churches.

    I. THE HOLY SPIRIT
    GOVERNS THE CHURCH OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

    A. The Lord's Church Has But One Head - Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:18).

    1a. Any man who takes that place is where God hasn't put him.
    1b. The Holy Spirit, as the Executive of the Godhead,
    has been sent to govern the churches while on earth.


    B. Notice This Fact By Looking At the Holy Spirit In the Book of Acts.
    1. First, He appoints the human leaders over the churches (Acts 20:28). These men are to be "filled with the Spirit" (Acts 6:3).
    2. Second, He helps a church to decide important cases of doctrine and practice (Acts 15:28).
    3. Third, He selects men as missionaries (Acts 13).
    a. He. sends them out (Acts 13:14).
    b. He determines their field of labor (Acts 16:6-10).
    4. Fourth, He rebukes, warns or encourages the churches. "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches" (Revelation 2:17, 29, and 3:13).
    a. In the Scriptures (letters to the churches), the Spirit is carrying on His ministry of governing the churches.
    b. Each letter is authoritative because it is the voice of the Spirit unto the churches.

    II. THE HOLY SPIRIT EQUIPS HIS CHURCHES.

    A. Churches Today Must Function Through Human Instrumentalities.

    1. The Spirit calls men into this body (l Corinthians 12:13, 18).
    2. The Spirit gives the needed spiritual gifts to them to enable them in the work of the Lord (l Corinthians 12:23-24).

    B. The Spirit Gives the Word of God To His Churches.
    1. The Christian is compared to a soldier (Ephesians 6).
    a. Defensive implements are mentioned.
    b. One offensive weapon is mentioned - the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17 and Hebrews 4:12).
    2. From the Word, churches draw their instruction, creed, interpretation, practices, and all else.

    C. The Spirit Gives the Diversity of Necessary Gifts (Ephesians 4:8, 11-16).
    1. The officers mentioned are gifts from God.
    2. See also I Corinthians 12:10, 28-30.
    3. Without varied gifts, the body would fail and fall apart.

    D. The Spirit Aids the Churches In Their Worship of God.
    1. He assists in prayers, praise, adoration, and thanksgiving (John 4:23-24).
    2. See Ephesians 5:18-20, 6:18; Colossians 3:l6;
    and Romans 8:26.

    ===========

    [Outlines in Systtematic Theology, p. 101.]


    More Baptists On Various Subjects
    Baptist History Homepage
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    1 John 2:27, ". . . But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. .
    . ."
     
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