Baptist View on Capitol Punishment

And, as much as everyone here argues about stuff, it is a very narrow glimpse into evangelicalism.

 

Does forgiveness mean no punishment? I see a disconnect in your reasoning, Jim.

I disagree with your reasoning, but you make some valid points--up to the "idolatry" comment. Sorry--can't go with you on that one at all.

It's no more "un-natural" than the murder committed by the criminal--which is what landed them on death row to begin with.

The error is in viewing CP as a deterrent. IMO, that's not the point. It is an extremely effective punishment. And on the deterrent side...if you are looking at a recidivism rate for CP "recipients"---it's really, really close to 0%.

I would be less disturbed about our going away from CP if there were some modicum of truth in sentencing. We've got folks in our church who have had a family member killed by someone who was supposedly "serving life." Life doesn't mean life--and there's too many loopholes that allow parole/probation/early release/etc.

I will say this: I'm just about ready for judges who let these animals out who promptly kill, rape, and abuse again to have to face criminal charges.

 

IMHO, capital punishment is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and should be opposed by Christians.

First, Jesus changed the conditions for implementing the O.T. Law of capital punishment in John 8 (the woman caught in adultery).

When Jesus said "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her", He wasn't just embarassing them or exposing their sin. He was referring to the O.T. Law of execution.

Deut. 17:5 "...then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to death. (6) On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. (7)The hand of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall purge the evil from your midst."

So, according to the O.T. Law, the 2 or 3 witnesses were the first to throw the stones (taking the blood of that person upon themselves) for execution.

Jesus changed that standard from the "2 or 3 witnesses" to "He who is without sin among you". Since only God is without sin, only God should implement the death penalty.

Second, Jesus implemented an example of "perfect patience" with the "worst of sinners" that is to be followed by all Christians.

I Tim. 1:15 "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among who I am foremost. (16) Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

The apostle Paul was a violent aggressor and a murderer by his own testimony (Acts 22:4 "I persecuted this Way to the death..."). Paul killed innocent Christians.

Paul testifies under inspiration of Holy Spirit that the reason he received mercy from Jesus was that Jesus was giving an example of "perfect patience" with the worst of sinners (even murderers like Paul) that was to be accepted and followed by all future Christian believers.

And so, in a nutshell, Jesus changed the conditions for implementing the O.T. Law for capital punishment and Jesus gave all Christians a new way of mercy and perfect patience toward the worst of sinners that we are to live by.

IMHO, capital punishment is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and should be opposed by Christians.

peace to youraying:

 

Alright then, also like the woman in John 8, a murderer (the only offense for which the death penalty is administered in some states of the USA) should just be told to "Go and sin no more?" Or do you not think these changes Jesus put into the law should be taken THAT seriously?

 

And this is where your theology begins to have trouble. Jesus never changed any law while He was here but only obeyed them.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

You have taken this verse out of context. It refers to idolatry not adultery,

Again out of context.

Was God without sin during the OT?

This fails to address the death penalty

Again Jesus was obedient to all of the law and did not work to change any of it until all was fulfilled.

 

So then, I take it that you oppose prisons on the same grounds.

 

It's not supposed to be a deterrent, it's supposed to be a punishment.

 

...and that's why fire engines are red.

 

Yeah; how many more buildings is Timothy McVeigh going to bomb?

 

Life in prison without parole would be appropriate.

peace to youraying:

 

Matt. 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' (22) But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;...."

Is that a different standard than was given in the O.T. Law? Did Jesus change the standard?

Matt. 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.';(28) but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Is that a different standard than was given in the O.T. Law? Did Jesus change the standard?

My "theology" is based on scripture. When scripture teaches contrary to what I believe I change my mind and agree with scripture... I don't make excuses to hold on to old beliefs.

The offense is of no consequence. Jesus demonstrates that when He refers to the passage in Deut. to decide the case for adultery. It is the implementation of the execution that remains the same.

Just because you say it doesn't make it true.

Are you serious? God remains without sin; then, now and always; and He doesn't need anyone's help to take someone's life; especially not a Christian's help since they are commanded to show mercy and perfect patience instead.

It addresses the attitudes that Christians should have toward the worst of sinners...even murderers like Paul. Killing someone, or supporting their death, does not exhibit mercy or perfect patience... just the opposite.

peace to youraying:

 

Exactly the same number he would have had he stayed in prison for the rest of his life.

How many people will Timothy McVeigh tell his testimony to... of how he was saved in prison and how he now tells everyone he meets about how Jesus transformed his life, and how he wants to do nothing but good in the world and tell everyone that there is forgiveness for sinners in the person of Jesus Christ, even murderers like him?

Oh, he can't because he's dead.

peace to youraying:

 

How about, "Is biblical per the NT" as an option?

 

Then what happens to your following Jesus' example and forgive? Besides, execution and "life in prison without parole" are really the same thing-- taking someone's liberty for the rest of the person's life, then shove him in the ground.

How many did Paul tell his testimony to? To me, for one; 19 centuries after he died.

 

I too would like to see it being Biblical per the NT then I would vote.

 

The example was mercy and perfect patience. That can be accomplished by life in prison.

A joke, right? You really can't see the difference between taking a person's life and keeping them in prison until the end of their natural life?

My point exactly.

If 1st century Christians thought like some do today, they may have taken it upon themselves to kill Paul for the murder of their family and friends.

That God used the murderer Paul as an extensive part of spreading the gospel should convince you that God may have plans for people who are the worst of sinners.

Christians should not support their deaths, but obey the commandment of Christ to show mercy and perfect patience with the worst of sinners.

peace to youraying:

 

No it is not.

No it is not.

Sure it is. Different offenses received different punishment. If you want to use scripture to back up the argument for your view on the death penalty you need to use the exact penalty for your specific offense.

And the same goes for you.

Absolutely. You tried to make the case that since God is the only one without sin only He has the right to effect the death penalty. But the same was true during the OT so your argument is mute.

No punishment exhibits what you are trying to impose on everyone. Any single punishment fails to meet that criteria.

 

We can't use the Bible to mandate capital punishment because the mandating passages apply to Old Testament Israel and not to modern-day societies.

 

But if you were consistent, you would say Paul, a murderer, should get "life in prison without parole." Should he have?