Baptist views of church-state separation

So you say that America is NOT a Christian nation? My mistake. We agree. Claiming that it is causes great harm to the only true Christian nation, the Kingdom of God.

 

Don't be absurd.

 

Reminds me of the reason for the letter to Colossians. False teachers were trying to say that Christ could not have been God because all matter is evil. It amazes me anyone calling themselves Christian would have a problem with the Ten Commandments in the court room. By the way most everyone already knows it is not an either or scenario.

 

So now you're saying that the Kingdom of God on earth is not Christian. That's worse than absurd. That's blasphemy.

 

Yes I am known for my blasphemy. Just ask anyone on the board. But of course I never said anything remotely close to that and I am quite puzzled at how you came to that conclusion.

 

It's the Christian world view that made the Constitution possible.

 

I would say that the most important thing that was stressed in the US constitution is political freedom. Would you agree? Where does Jesus ever say anything supporting the idea that political freedom is an important goal for Christians. Actually, He constantly argued that He came to earth not to set up a political kingdom but rather a heavenly kingdom. He refused to do anything to free Israel from Roman bondage. This is what most Jews expected their messiah to do but He always stressed that that was not His goal.

So if Jesus thought that political freedom was not important for His followers to pursue how can you claim that His teachings formed the basis for our constitution?

 

No. The Constitution is a set of rules and regulations that rule the national government, not its people, and it doesn't stress anything. The spirit behind the Constitution is stressed in the Declaration of Independence, that men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certian unalienable rights.

"Political freedom" is a poor choice of words and doesn't accurately describe the concept. I prefer the term "liberty." Christ said "love thy neighbor as thyself."

He commanded his disciples to go into all nations teaching them to observe all things that He commanded.

Liberty is an eminently Scriptural concept, and as Christ is the author of Scripture, it's a no-brainer.

 

I prefer the term political freedom. What does love thy neighbor have to do with freedom? Do you agree that Christ made it clear that He did not come to free Israel from Roman oppression? In fact He also made it clear that those who had this as their objective did not understand His message. He did command them to evangelize the world, to spread the gospel. But it was not a gospel of political freedom. In fact, most of His followers and the early Christians did not have freedom. They were oppressed and enslaved.

Does that indicate that Christianity was a failure? Not at all because it had nothing to do with freedom.

 

But to ignore the underpinnings of our moral code (and thus our law...at least some of it), and to ignore the background stories as to our nation's formation...that ignores who we are. It is a fundamental aspect of our existence as a Republic. It is also a touchstone, a boundary, that keeps our nation's direction in check. To ignore from where we came is to make unsure where we're going.

Finally...the best examples (IMO) of the assault on religious freedoms takes place in the schools. There is a very clear and easily-understood "equal access law." That law--that clearly states if anyone has access to school facilities/resources, then one cannot deny a religious group's--is trampled all the stinking time by educrats nationwide. Equal Access re-inforces freedom of religion. Denial of this right...that's freedom from religion, and it is wrong--any way you cut it.

OK. Common ground, then. We should never, ever equate our status as believers with our citizenship. We should never declare "God is on our side" based on our country of origin or party affiliation. And sure, there are some who do that.

However, we must not ignore that God has blessed this 233 year-old experiment in freedom.

 

Everything. If you love your neighbor as yourself, then you will do all you can to ensure his freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, his freedom to raise his children, his freedom to work and to enjoy the fruits of his labors, and the list goes on.

Given the opportunity to set up a new government, what kind would you establish?

 

I know you did not ask me the question, but if I could establish a new government, it would be patterned after the US Constitution, and that is how we would live, unlike our present government. There would be no democrat or republican party, education, HUD, OSHA or other unconstitutional department, the would be no federal reserve, and no unholy alliance between lobbyists, corporations and politicians. Our leaders would start serving and stop robbing the American people.

 

A good example of "God is on our side" thinking is proclaiming that the Iraq war pits Christians versus Muslims. It does nothing of the sort. It pits the US army against middle eastern terrorist insurgents.

 

I think the American form of government is the best anybody has come up with yet. However, it controls its citizens and displays its power in the world through the use of force. The point I'm making is that the Kingdom of God on earth is infinitely superior to any worldly kingdom. Claiming that "America is a Christian nation" is confusing to many people. They tend to think of the shortcomings of America as the shortcomings of God's Kingdom. Claiming that America is "one nation under God" implies that America has somehow picked up the mantle from Israel as His country. This is a completely false allegation which is not supported anywhere in the Bible. God had only one favored nation. That was Israel.

 

Then our fight should not be an attempt to "Christianize" the public school system. Our fight should be to remove the shackles of tax-supported, centralized public education and for educational freedom.

Since we already know that the Constitution does not delineate the federal government the power to provide or control education, we can argue that the current system is unconstitutional.

The issue is not about whether the USA is a "Christian nation" but rather whether Christians have the effectual and equal freedom to practice their beliefs and share them freely and openly with others. The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart. No amount of legal wrangling that favors Christian viewpoints actually changes hearts; freedom does.

 

More absurdity

 

Hmmm... In the USA, Jesus is my King... Jesus is my King no matter where I am because my citizenship in Heaven means more than my pilgrimage on Earth.

So it was with the founding fathers...

"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!" [April 18, 1775]

Soo...

Do we adopt MPs slogan.. or the founding father's slogan?

 

And according to Paul, Christians are now Israel...

So... if this Country want's God's favor on it, it had better get back to the Christian values we once had.

 

By what criteria do you judge it as "the best"?