Baptists Many Years Ago

Hank, fair questions. I'll take a stab and maybe Rufus will flesh things out.

First, Jesus established his church during his earthly ministry. It was in existence prior to Matthew 16, had sent out missionaries, had marching orders, a treasurer, a Head and one of the ordinances. This is the assembly Jesus said he would build. The 12 disciples were the material of the first church.

Re: I Cor 10:32, remember that Paul is writing to a local congregation in Corinth. He is probably referring to that congregation. But there is a sense in which the "church" can be spoken of in a generic manner, as we do "the family."


If we refer to "an assault on the family," we know that specific, concrete assaults affect only real families, not universal, generic families.

Hebrews 12:23. Look back one verse and let's take both together: "but ye are come to Mount Zion, and unto the city of our living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."

I see this as an obvious reference to God's presence, where in fact there will be a great general assembly. Notice that this is an actual assembly, gathered in one place. This is not a generic church nor a universal church, this is a real one, meeting for a specific purpose.

Neither universal nor generics ever meet for any purpose at all. Only specific assemblies do.

 

RE: All of the above.

This is because the local Church is the visible Church which can and does have unbelievers among its ranks.

Only God knows who are actually His own and that collective Body (both in heaven and on earth) is the "Universal Church" (IMO).

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.​

Hebrews 12

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.​

Discipline: Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.​

Organization: ​

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

NKJ 1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.​

The universal Church has one sufficient Christ as it's builder, organizer, disciplinarian, shepherd and Overseer.


HankD

 

In the passage in question (Matthew 16) Jesus uses the personal pronoun "my church" not the definite article "the church". So it is a specific church - His Church not a generic church and the gates of hell will not prevail against "it".

This is why I said I'm not convinced, (however, FWIW I'm still willing to listen).

I am a former Catholic and I realize I may be influenced by their view of this passage (But not that Peter is the Rock upon which this Church is built but Christ).

HankD

 

How did the local church in Jerusalem meet?

If it was just one local body, they had to have a meeting place.

Who had a house big enough to hold over 5,000?

How did this work?

 

Just a guess, but probably in small groups, in homes, or what I heard once described as preaching stations. This may have been the early pattern for a plurality of elders (preachers).

Also, since many of the 3000 saved on the Day of Pentecost were from other countries or provinces and returned home after Pentecost, the Jerusalem church may not have been to big to meet in one place. Just speculation.

 

Remember that when Jesus spoke those words, his church was made up of only 12 members and was the only one in existence. We are agreed, it was a specific assembly, not generic.

And so were all subsequent assemblies.

I am still waiting for anyone to answer the question: For what purpose does the universal church exist?

 

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


HankD​

 

"I will build my church"... Are you part of the "my church" of which He speaks Tom?

HankD

 

I am part of the church Jesus called "my church." It goes by the name of East Baptist Church. It is, like the church at Ephesus, the church purchased with his own blood.

 

Totally agree, what God does he does for his own pleasure and his glory.

I think the Lord created the local church for the same reason. I suppose it is possible that God is pleasured by the universal church which does nothing, just as much as the local church, which carries out the Great Commission.

Jesus established the local church and gave it the commission. If one argues that he gave it to the "universal church," where is the evidence that they've done any of it? And how can God be pleased with that? And how can he receive glory from it?

 

Ditto here, too, Tom. Actually I suppose I've heard a lot of terminology, but I believe the above are the most commonly used definitions.

 

Well, I'm not necessarily saying that the Universal Church has been given "The Commission" (although each local church should consider participating in that commission) but that there is a Body of believers which can be scripturally viewed as "The Church", the one against which the gates of hell shall not prevail and that Church is pure and free of unbelievers.

Ultimately He will be glorified in spite of the failures of His own children and the infiltration of the tares among the wheat.

Even the wicked will glorify Him.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

We don't see it yet but it will happen.

1 Corinthians 15

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.​

Philippians 2

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Zechariah 14:21 ... and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

In the meantime:​

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

No, I'm not a Baptist Brider but I do believe that the terms the "Bride of Christ" and/or the "Body of Christ" represent the Church of Matthew 16:18 which is made up of believers only.

Ephesians 5

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.​

This may very well be a matter of semantics.

At very least "The Church" (Universal being understood) is my way of distinguishing between the "mixed multitude" of the collective local churches here on earth and that Blood washed Body of believers who have been born of and baptised in the Spirit since His first Advent.

Bless you one and all as we remember His Resurrection and Glorification today.

HankD

 

To that, I say Amen!

 

Then why does our church practice open communion? :laugh:

 

I am in Oklahoma for two weeks of school for my job, not a tree in sight. Ed, I extend my deepest sympathy. :laugh:

 

The church you and I serve practices open communion because it has never taken a position otherwise in my time there.

And you and I know that my views on that subject are in the miniority in our congregation.

 

Not only should the local church consider partcipating in the Great Commission, it the commission was expressely aimed in that direction.

Also, a church that is pure and free of unbelievers is still a useless entity unless it does carry out the great commission.

I'm not a Baptist Brider, either. I agree that the Bride and/or the Body is that Church Jesus referred to in Matthew 16:18. But that church had an unbeliever--Judas. By your definition, it can't be the makings of the Universal Church.

 

I would say that Judas was not born again, therefore not a member of the Church Jesus spoke of in Matthew 16 Tom.

HankD

 

I agree, and think the same standard applies to any unbeliever whose name is on some congregation's roll.

 

Which in fact is the over riding focal point of this whole issue. You can come up with all the Greek, Hebrew, theological theories that one wants, but the fact remains, a church roll is a man made artifical barrier, not a worthy standard for the Lord's Supper. The more one thinks about it, the more worldly the standard becomes. Maybe we should limit those who take the Lord's Supper to those with green eyes.