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Becoming Catholic?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Brother Adam, Aug 13, 2003.

?
  1. Actually, I plan on becoming Catholic, but am not one yet

    7.7%
  2. It's a definite possibility

    15.4%
  3. Only if all of my objections were cleared up first

    23.1%
  4. When cows sprout wings and fly

    38.5%
  5. not a chance

    15.4%
  6. I'm picking this option because I'm a non-conformest and refuse to vote.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    Okay, so you deny that Paul said that believers would differ on the observance of days, meats eaten, etc?

    Also, if you claim that faith in Jesus Christ is not enough to unify believers, are you saying those who do not agree with RCC teaching are not Christians because they do not show unification with the RCC?

    What a shame, Carson. I didn't know all these other areas, especially with regards to baptism and eccliesiology, were primary issues that determined whether a person is a good Christian (maybe even if?). So those who do not agree with the RCC's view on baptism and eccliesiology is not a true Christian? Remember, I asked what was the unifying faith of all true Christians. John and Paul would disagree with you as to what is required for one to be a true Christian.

    But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. John 1:12, ESV

    If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9, ESV

    Same here, faith in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, and his finished work. [​IMG]

    Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!
    Neal
     
  2. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Hey Carson, alright, I can sort of see how that might be the case if the RCC is the trunk, but in that case, wouldn't it be a pole and not a tree (with branches)? However, if the trunk is more "general" (i.e. the tree includes all who have faith in Christ), that allows branches to exist while still being part of the tree. I'm not yet sure if the RCC is "the Church" or more generally "part of the Church" if you know what I mean. That's what I'm trying to sort out in my thinking right now about the growth of the church from the first century onwards. [​IMG]

    No, but he taught that all believers *should* be unified in what they believe (even if they are not). Independent interpretation effectively makes this impossible. Never mind across denominations, this very forum is proof that even internal to a denomination (e.g. "Baptists") you'll have a HUGE range of differing interpretations on substantial issues (eschatology, eternal security, etc, etc, etc). Should "unity of the faith" be restricted to simply 2 or 3 important issues, with the rest dumped out like a giant jigsaw puzzle, everyone scrambling to make their piece fit?
     
  3. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    No, I think you misunderstand. "would" and "should" are two very different words. [​IMG] Believers will differ, but they shouldn't. They *should* be all of the same mind, agreeing.
     
  4. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    Really? Hmm....Romans 14 doesn't seem to indicate that. Yes, we should be unified in our faith in Christ and the implications of that. However, Paul seems to say quite the opposite of what many RCs say here, and what you seem to imply that all believers must believe the same thing on secondary issues. If you could point me to the verse that says we have to agree on everything, or should, to be a faithful Christian, I would appreciate it.

    We shouldn't cause others to stumble, but that doesn't mean we all agree on everything.

    One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. Romans 14:5, ESV

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
  5. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    What church are you a member of? I believe in the Universal (Catholic) Church. I am a part of that Church. However, I am not a part of the RCC. So what is the problem?

    Hey, no offense intended. I was implying no such thing, actually quite the opposite. So in the final analysis, your final authority you used was your belief (interpretation, opinion, whatever you want to call it) and decided that the RCC was the true church, correct? That is not much different from what I have done. [​IMG]

    God Bless You, LaRae.
    Neal
     
  6. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    No, again you're mixing up words. "must" and "should" are also different words. [​IMG] Paul exhorts us to have unity, but recognizes that sometimes there is disunity.

    Look at it this way: Paul exhorts us to not commit sin, but recognizes that sometimes we do sin. When we sin, it is not as it *should* be. When people disagree on matters of faith, it is not as it *should* be.

    Paul notes and allows disagreement, but it would be better if there was none. But the point is, history has shown us that personal, independent interpretation of scripture gives us the exact opposite of unity. There's no way we can get the unity Paul is exhorting us to if we all act as our own interpretational authority.

    Brian
     
  7. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    Brain,

    Could you please point me to where Paul says that we all "should" observe certain days, say, such as the Assumption of Mary. Where are you getting this idea that we should agree on all kinds of secondary issues? Where do you draw the line? Shouldn't all Christians avoid wearing certain things or doing certain things? Where do you draw the line as to what we "should" do?

    So are all believers not unified in their faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and his death, burial, and resurrection for our sins according to Scriptures?

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
  8. LaRae

    LaRae Guest

    What church are you a member of? I believe in the Universal (Catholic) Church. I am a part of that Church. However, I am not a part of the RCC. So what is the problem?

    Hey, no offense intended. I was implying no such thing, actually quite the opposite. So in the final analysis, your final authority you used was your belief (interpretation, opinion, whatever you want to call it) and decided that the RCC was the true church, correct? That is not much different from what I have done. [​IMG]

    God Bless You, LaRae.
    Neal
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am a member of the Catholic Church, Latin Rite....and unless you submit yourself to Rome you are not Catholic, which is the Universal Church, established by Christ.

    I submitted myself to the authority of the Catholic Church, the only Church which Christ established.


    God Bless you also Neal and may oneday you find the fullness of Truth in the one Universal Church, The Catholic Church.

    LaRae
     
  9. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    Which Church you ask? The Church that Christ established before HE left
    the earth, the Church who HE gave the keys of the kingdom to, represnted
    by the first pope, Peter....that Church.

    The Catholic Church does not deny that other religions have faith. The teaching
    is that due to error along the way other religions only have parts of the faith as opposed to the fullness of faith found in the Catholic Church


    Hailing to Mary and making weekly mass increases faith ? [​IMG]

    I came to a belief, repentance and total peace with God 27 years ago. I
    fulfilled the requirement that we are all subject to....."Believe on Him whom He
    has sent" That is the work of God as shown in St John. It is then up to God
    to do His work through us via the Holy Spirit. Whatever I bring to God is inferior
    in light of His sacrifice through Jesus Christ. Now you say my faith is inferior as
    opposed to faith found in the Catholic Church? I can think of 10 local Catholics
    and I'll admit their faith (in the Catholic Church and the local priest and the pope)
    is GREAT. As for their faith being greater than mine though.........???

    (Stifling an outburst of laughter here.!!!!)

    Christ established a church on earth...?
    Why didn't he name it.....why is he hiding the gospel from mankind if that is so?

    The gospel is an easy yoke and a light burden......that CANT be Catholicism.
     
  10. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    Really? Hmm....Romans 14 doesn't seem to indicate that. Yes, we should be unified in our faith in Christ and the implications of that. However, Paul seems to say quite the opposite of what many RCs say here, and what you seem to imply that all believers must believe the same thing on secondary issues.</font>[/QUOTE]Do you feel a moral obligation to believe in an article of faith that you know is true? If so, then the real question is how does one determine the truth of issues, both primary and secondary*. The interesting question is not about personal interpretation, but about what mechanism Christ left us by which we are to discover truth.

    *How "small" does a secondary issue have to be before you're comfortable in believing the opposite of what you know to be the truth about that issue?
     
  11. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    So I am not a Christian? You have just redifined Universal Church, to make it not so universal. [​IMG] I am a part of Christ's bride, which is the Church. I am a believer in Christ and a child of God. I am sorry you don't like this. [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
  12. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Paul didn't mention specific doctrines, listing each and everything believers should be in unity about. He just said we should be unified in the faith. Carson gave many verses earlier:

    Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God & Father
    Rom 16:17 - avoid those who create dissensions
    1 Cor 1:10 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
    Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heard, thinking one thing
    Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony w/ one another
    1 Cor 12:13 - in one spirit we were baptized into one body
    Rom 12:5 - we, though many, are one body in Christ
    Eph 4:4 - one body, one Spirit, called to one hope
    Col 3:15 - the peace into which you were called in one body

    ???? Why *shouldn't* unity of faith be extended to all matters of faith??? Even on secondary issues, one view is right and at least one view is wrong. For example, timing of the rapture. Should it be OK that people have the wrong doctrine, just because it's a "secondary" issue? The ramifications of being wrong are smaller for this issue than for being wrong on a "primary" issue (e.g. Christ's deity), but that doesn't mean it's perfectly fine to be in error.

    Paul exhorts us to be of ONE MIND. Two conflicting views are either two minds, or a double-minded mind. Both are not what should be happening in the Church.

    "should" is not about every aspect of life, it's about doctrine. The Christian faith should be of one mind.

    Yes, on those matters there is general unity. But on matters such as rapture-timing, Calvinism, which Bible versions are acceptable, how to understand the Lord's Supper, autonomy of the local church, etc, etc, etc, no, believers are not unified in their faith at all. They should be. But they can't be while everyone is their own interpretational authority.
     
  13. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    You go first. [​IMG] Where do you draw the line on what issues all believers should be unified on and believe the same thing.

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
  14. LaRae

    LaRae Guest

    So I am not a Christian? You have just redifined Universal Church, to make it not so universal. [​IMG] I am a part of Christ's bride, which is the Church. I am a believer in Christ and a child of God. I am sorry you don't like this. [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Neal
    </font>[/QUOTE]Don't create straw men Neal.....I've already explained the Church's teaching on non-Catholics. No one has said you are not Christian.

    You are part of the divison, the protestors...Christ never intended to have a divided Church.


    LaRae
     
  15. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    So what is defined as the faith? Believing Mary was a perpetual virgin? That she was assumed? She was sinless? That the pope in Rome is the head of Christ's church on earth?

    Why? Show me where we should be, please. Christ and the Gospel is central to Christianity.

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
  16. LaRae

    LaRae Guest

    Laugh at your own risk, God won't be mocked.

    Practicing the faith does tend to make one stronger in it. You go to weekly Church services don't you? You pray each day do'nt you?

    Christ did name it...the Universal Church (what do you think the word Catholic means??? Look it up).

    It can be anything God wants it to be, your rejection of it doesn't make it any less true.


    LaRae
     
  17. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    I am not creating strawmen. What is your opinion? Am I a Christian? If I am, I am part of the Universal Church. If I am not, then I am not a part of that church. Play word games all you want, but you have out and out redefined Universal Church by constraining it to the Latin Rite (RCC). Christ's Church is far bigger than earthly organizations.

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
  18. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    Where did Christ call it the Universal Church?

    God Bless,
    Neal
     
  19. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    So what is defined as the faith? Believing Mary was a perpetual virgin? That she was assumed? She was sinless? That the pope in Rome is the head of Christ's church on earth?
    </font>[/QUOTE]*If* the Catholic Church has the authority talked about in scripture for the Church, yes.

    Why? Show me where we should be, please? Christ and the Gospel is central to Christianity.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Why???? Because there should be no error! We should be believing truth. Show you where??? Open the NT and pick a page. [​IMG] Show me where error and believing false doctrine is perfectly acceptable. Yes, Christ is central to Christianity, but the Christian faith is not just Christ. There was an authority detailed the Trinity. There was an authority that laid out the canon. Is it OK to be in complete disagreement about what books should be in the canon? Why or why not?
     
  20. LaRae

    LaRae Guest

    I am not creating strawmen. What is your opinion? Am I a Christian? If I am, I am part of the Universal Church. If I am not, then I am not a part of that church. Play word games all you want, but you have out and out redefined Universal Church by constraining it to the Latin Rite (RCC). Christ's Church is far bigger than earthly organizations.

    In Christ,
    Neal
    </font>[/QUOTE]I daresay I don't know you well enough to determine if you are Christian or not. Again if you go back and read what I said earlier today in this thread, the Church's teaching on those Christians outside the Church.

    I haven't constrained anything. I am a Catholic who is in the Latin Rite of the Church. Perhaps you need to go look up the various Rites who are in full communion with the Catholic Church.


    LaRae
     
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