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Behold, I stand at the door and knock.

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by King James Bond, Aug 23, 2005.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 5 makes the point that some are babes in Christ while others are at more mature levels.

    IT DOES NOT argue that the Babes in christ who embrace fully only the ENTRY level themes of the Gospel are "ALONE and WITHOUT UNION with CHRIST"!!

    NEVER Does Paul or ANY NT author argue that the MATURING process involves the saints STARTING at a point IN salvation - IN their walk - that is ALONE and WITHOUT CHRIST the way we see the Gospel invitation given to those who are WITHOUT Christ in Rev 3!!

    In fact in Col 2 Paul argues "AS YOU HAVE RECEIVED Christ Jesus SO WALK in Him"

    This is DEVASTATING to the point you are making above.

    In Rev 2:1 the message to the FIRST of the SEVEN churches is to RETURN to their FIRST LOVE!

    It is the UNION, FAith, Fervor, Enthusiasm and JOY of that FIRST walk - the FELLOWSHIP in that FIRST walk with Christ that is SO highly treasured -- NOT the lack of maturity in understanding and practice!!

    But THAT is not the Joy of someone ALONE and WITHOUT Christ!

    How can this glaring obvious point be glossed over?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Bob,

    We shall never agree on this simply because you're not hearing me.

    I never said the closed door represented NO UNION with Christ. This is your interpretation.

    I never said the open door represented Union with Christ. This is your interpretation.

    This is simply a word picture that communicates that Jesus wants to fellowship MORE with the Christians in the Church than they are allowing him to.

    Calvinists believe that Christians make choices that affect their daily walk with Christ.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. Fine - SHOW that being ALONE on the inside WITHOUT CHrist IS the Bible definition of "UNION WITH Christ". Simply pointing out that you failed to address the point is not a point in your favor.

    #2. Find - then SHOW that Christ on the INSIDE -- WITH THE Believer is NOT in fact UNION WITH Christ.

    The Word picture communicates the CLEAR and obvious truth of being WITH Christ vs being WITHOUT Christ. It SHOWS that Union WITH Christ uses the terms "I WITH him and he WITH Me"

    Instead of avoiding the details - glossing over them and ignoring them -- embrace them!

    #1. CHrist on the OUTSIDE - lost humanity alone on the INSIDE.

    #2. Christ is not opening the door - He is only knocking and waiting. (Drawing ALL mankind unto Him)

    #3. The invitation is in the form of a knock - NOT in the form of OPENING the door and coming in but WAITING and knocking!

    The gating action is very simple. Having STARTED with Christ taking the inititiative and knocking - the NEXT gate is "IF ANY of mankind" alone and on the inside WITHOUT Chirst -- chooses to hear AND to OPEN the door THEN the desired union will take place!


    The next action is Christs - HE WILL come in -- and UNION With Christ Takes place. Note the details IN the text where Union WITH Christ is the focus!

    Those who deny this goal - the objective of Christ in Knocking -- the goal of UNION WITH Christ -- deny the entire Gospel invitation of Rev 3:22!

    Why deny the Gospel "just for Calvinism"? Why not embrace the truth instead?


    See friends -- Be willing to quote the text and show how EACH salient point IN the illustration is showing the Gospel truth!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of the entire world –

    #1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

    #2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

     
  5. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Hey BobRyan

    When one rejects God's everlasting covenants and embraces "the Church replaces Israel" error, then one cannot properly understand 2 Tim 2.

    If we have died with Christ—and every believer has—then we will also live with Him! Verse 11 is an uncompromising statement of the absolute certainty that every believer possesses of living with Christ in the future. Nothing in the remainder of this passage (or any other passage of Scripture, for that matter) will contradict this clearly stated axiom.

    While v 11 was a statement of certainty, v 12 is a statement of contingency. The Christian will definitely live with Christ in the future. However, he may or may not receive special commendation and reward from the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Verse 12, correctly understood, is motivational, designed to encourage Timothy (and by application, every believer) to be consistently faithful to the Lord in his Christian life. In context, Paul has been exhorting his friend to be a good "soldier," "athlete," and "farmer" for the Lord (2 Tim 2:3-6), following the ultimate example of Christ Himself (2 Tim 2:8) and the immediate example of the Apostle Paul (2 Tim 2:9, 10). Verses 11-13, but especially v 12, fit nicely into this contextual setting in affirming that the quality of a believer's Christian life on earth will affect the quality of his future eternal experience with Christ.

    The two conditional clauses of v 12 describe opposing extremes of Christian conduct, endurance for Christ and denial of Christ. To be properly understood it is imperative that these two statements be interpreted in light of the immediately preceding declaration of v 11. The sinner who has trusted Christ, has died with Him, and will also live with Him in the future. Verse 11 thus makes it absolutely clear that the future destination of believers is not in doubt. The issue of a believer's living a life of enduring fidelity to his Lord, however, is very much in question. Will the Christian steadfastly live in submission to Christ or will he consistently deny Christ's Lordship and its implications over his or her life? The Word of God is clear that not all believers faithfully live for their Lord while on earth (Acts 19:18-19; 1 Cor 3:1-3; 11:30; Gal 5:16-21; 1 Tim 1:19-20; 2 Tim 2:17-18; Heb 4:1-2, 11).
    Only those Christians who demonstrate an enduring, persistent faithfulness to the Lord in this life will receive special reward in the next. Carnal believers who live selfishly, denying Christ's Lordship over their lives, will be denied special commendation when their Christian experience is evaluated by the Lord.

    Verse 13 is a reaffirmation of the comforting and foundational truth of this passage that "we shall live with Him" (v 11). The solemn reference to possible major failure by the Christian ("if we deny Him") and the serious consequence ("He also will deny us") in the previous verse demands a reassuring word.

    Faithfulness to Christ is vital in order that the believer might glorify God and bear much fruit. However, steadfastness for the Lord is not to be motivated by the mistaken idea that endurance is necessary to obtain, or to retain, eternal life and the assurance of future life with Christ. While there is a very real price to be paid for failure in the Christian experience, that price will never involve consignment to the lake of fire.

    Second Timothy 2:11-13 teaches the cardinal truth that the believer's assurance of eternal life, and ultimately, actual life in His presence, is the basis upon which he is to build a steadfastly faithful Christian life. Sadly, many in evangelical circles today teach just the opposite. They deny that a believer can have complete assurance of salvation until and unless he demonstrates consistent and ongoing faithfulness. This erroneous idea that faithfulness is the basis of assurance confuses grace and works, and actually undermines both assurance and faithfulness, because it insidiously works to weaken believers, not only theologically, but also psychologically.

    Designed to be both comforting and motivating, the passage begins (v 11) and ends (v 13) with definitive statements of assurance of future life with Christ for all believers. Building on this absolutely assured status, v 12 seeks to motivate believers to a life of steadfast endurance with an offer and a warning. Believers should realize that faithful endurance on earth will result in special privilege in the future. Believers should also soberly understand that those who deny Christ's Lordship in their Christian experience will cause Christ to deny them reward.

    The truths of this often misunderstood passage must be meticulously maintained in our thinking, living, witnessing, preaching, and teaching. Yes, all believers are secure in their basic relationship with Jesus Christ; they will definitely live with Him in the future. Yes, all believers will have their Christian lives evaluated and scrutinized. Those who have been steadfastly faithful will receive wonderful rewards and special prerogatives. Those who have been unfaithful will have such reward and prerogatives denied them. And yes, even the inconsistent, unfruitful believer remains secure in his basic relationship with the Lord. His security is based solely on the gracious, immutable faithfulness of Christ Himself. Man's works are not that upon which his salvation depends. And yet his works as a Christian will be evaluated, and this evaluation will determine either the presentation or the denial of reward. In short, 2 Tim 2:11-13 teaches that the believer in Christ is secure yet scrutinized.

    Lloyd

    [Heavily quoted from: Brad McCoy, “Secure Yet Scrutinized: 2 Timothy 2:11-13,” JOTGES 1:1 (Aut 1988).]
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I really wouldn't know about that level of failure. I assume you are the expert on it.

    In any case - my bet is that instead of highlighing the DETAILS IN the text - the approach of someone utterly failing to exegete 2Tim 2 will be to simply gloss over the text without even quoting the difficult part - and simply insert "what the wish had been written".

    Who is the "WE" and the "US" mentioned there?

    And is it your teaching that Christ "denies" the saints??

    I will admit that a lot of dancing could be had if one did not want to come right out and address those questions - no doubt about. I am just wondering if the questions will be directly answered.

    As I highlight - and bold highlight the disconfirming portions of the text for you - perhaps you could highlight and detail them just as well in your reply. And show the answer to the very pointed and direct questions.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Hey BobRyan

    Simply read the rest of the post. Why stop at two paragraphs?

    You need to come up to speed on Jesus' Kingdom.

    Lloyd
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Bob asks --

    </font>[/QUOTE]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    So clearly the "WE" in Lloyd's response is confessed to be "born again saints" and so it is "failure by a Christian" that is the subject.

    Obviously.

    What then is the answer to the second question?
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?
     
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