1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured "Believing is the consequence of the new birth"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Aug 1, 2022.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    8,138
    Likes Received:
    1,273
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's absolutely tenable...if you read the entire letter, Silverhair. It's even more tenable if you read your entire Bible. But both things are something you seem unwilling to do.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    2,763
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The why do you change the meaning of Gods' words?
     
  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    2,763
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just shows you really do not trust what the Holy Spirit inspired. You have to read into the text and/or change the meaning of words for your Calvinism to work.
     
  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,009
    Likes Received:
    869
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1) Yes, it is tenable. It is Bible fact.

    2) I am not a Calvinist.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,009
    Likes Received:
    869
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Bible teaches that the elect were chosen by God before the world began. Man is not sovereign over salvation. God, the Creator, is sovereign. Not the creature.
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,009
    Likes Received:
    869
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is not my intention to do any such thing. And I do not believe that I am doing so in this matter.

    "and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luke 2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1 John 5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1 John 2:1; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for John 17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case."

    - from John Gill's Bible commentary on 1 John 2:2
     
  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    2,763
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1] only if you read into the into the text. Your continued hold to that view just shows you do not in fact trust the bible text. You change the meaning of words to suit your agenda.

    2] You can say your not and I accept that but if you hold to their view what do you expect people think?
     
  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    2,763
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The only way a person is elect is through faith. Since you nor I were around before the world was formed we could not have been elect at that time. Christ Jesus is the "elect" one and we are only elect when we are in Him. You keep missing those two critical words in Epn 1:4 "in Him".
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,009
    Likes Received:
    869
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do you realize that you are saying that you are sovereign over your own salvation when you write that? Why do you insist on removing the sovereignty of God in the matter of who He saves and thinking that salvation is conditional in something in yourself?
     
    #109 KenH, Aug 6, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,009
    Likes Received:
    869
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Catholics teach that Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that, too. Doing so doesn't make me a Catholic, now does it?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,009
    Likes Received:
    869
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do in fact trust the Biblical text.
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    11,121
    Likes Received:
    910
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If belief ever precedes the new birth in any way, then one believing after the new birth can not be used to prove belief to be a result of the new birth.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    2,763
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Baptist
    For someone that claims not to be a Calvinist I note you love to quote Calvinists.

    Yes I know that the word world can mean different things depending on the context. But note the word, context. Your reading of "world" as "elect" steps outside of the context.

    John was, in these words "but also for the whole world" affirming that Christ died for everyone 2Co_5:14-15, 2Co_5:19, Heb_2:9. Which means that anyone who hears the gospel can be saved not that all will be saved.

    Also for the sins of the whole world. Christ's advocacy is limited to believers (1Jn_2:1; 1Jn_1:7): His propitiation extends as widely as sin: note, 2Pe_2:1, "the whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion (cf. 1Jn_4:14 and 1Jn_5:19). 'Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me' (Luther). Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

    For the whole world (peri holou tou kosmou). It is possible to supply the ellipsis here of tōn hamartiōn (the sins of) as we have it in Heb_7:27, but a simpler way is just to regard “the whole world” as a mass of sin (1Jn_5:19). At any rate, the propitiation by Christ provides for salvation for all (Heb_2:9) if they will only be reconciled with God (2Co_5:19-21). Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)

    For the sins of the whole world (περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου)
    The sins of (A. V., italicized) should be omitted; as in Revelation, for the whole world. Compare 1Jo_4:14; Joh_4:42; Joh_7:32. “The propitiation is as wide as the sin” (Bengel). If men do not experience its benefit, the fault is not in its efficacy. Düsterdieck (cited by Huther) says, “The propitiation has its real efficacy for the whole world; to believers it brings life, to unbelievers death.” Luther: “It is a patent fact that thou too art a part of the whole world; so that thine heart cannot deceive itself, and think, the Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me.” On κόσμου see on Joh_1:9. Vincent's Word Studies
     
  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    2,763
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Then why do you not trust what it says?
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    8,138
    Likes Received:
    1,273
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It shows I trust all the Holy Spirit's inspiration. I don't cling to one verse, outside of context as you once again show us here when you cling to only one verse to create your terrible theology.
     
  16. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,009
    Likes Received:
    869
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do trust what the Bible teaches.
     
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    2,763
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Read post #113. You are the one that holds to the view that is outside the context.

    Here are a few more that disagree with your view.

    With one of his typical afterthoughts John adds that the efficacy of this sacrifice is not confined to the sins of his particular group of readers. It reaches out to all mankind. [The NIV has “but also for the sins of the whole world,” supplying the words italicized from the context; cf. Joh_1:29. Westcott’s view (44f.) that we should translate “but for the whole world” seems over-subtle.] The universal provision implies that all men have need of it. There is no way to fellowship with God except as our sins are forgiven by virtue of the sacrifice of Jesus. At the same time John rules out the thought that the death of Jesus is of limited efficacy; the possibility of forgiveness is cosmic and universal.The New International Commentary on the New Testament

    The sacrifice of Jesus’ sinless life is so effective that it can supply forgiveness for the whole world (2Co_5:14-15, 2Co_5:19; Heb_2:9). Christ’s death is sufficient for all, but efficient only for those who believe in Christ. Not everyone will be saved, but Jesus offers salvation to all (Rev_22:17). Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Commentary

    "for our sins; and not ours only, but also for those of the whole world" This refers to the potential of unlimited atonement (cf. 1Jn_4:14; Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16-17; Joh_12:47; Rom_5:18; 1Ti_4:10; Tit_2:11; Heb_2:9; Heb_7:25). Jesus died for the sin and sins of the whole world (cf. Gen_3:15). The only thing that keeps the whole world from being saved is not sin, but unbelief. However, humans must respond and continue to respond by faith, repentance, obedience, and perseverance! Study Guide Commentary Series by Dr. Bob Utley

    When one verse fits with the overall context you can use one verse to make your point. This seems to be something that you do not understand. Or is it that you do not think the people on BB know how to look something up in their bible if they question the comment made to see if it is reasonable?
     
  18. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,009
    Likes Received:
    869
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It doesn't matter if a comment is reasonable in studying the Bible. The test is whether the comment is true. Just as in salvation sincerity is not the standard; perfect righteousness is the standard.
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    2,763
    Likes Received:
    142
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I notice that you ignore everything else that was posted. I used the term "reasonable" in the sense of does it fit with the context. Your understanding of 1Jn 2:2 "whole world" as "elect" is not reasonable.
     
  20. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,009
    Likes Received:
    869
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, it is. It is also correct.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...