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Bible Study: God's Foreknowledge

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Mar 5, 2011.

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  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    But James IS saying they are chosen because they are rich in faith. He is trying to dispel the false teaching that riches are a sign of favor, and poverty a sign of cursing. And James is directly saying God chose the poor who are rich in faith.
    Man judges according to the eye, but God sees the heart.
     
    #61 Winman, Mar 6, 2011
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Difficult Greek

    Calvinism must reject James 2:5 and therefore they defend the rejection with alternate interpretations of the Greek grammar. But clearly the poor where chosen, and they were of the world. So even if Calvinists deny they were chosen because of their faith, as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, there is no getting around the fact that the election for salvation occurring during their lifetime and not before creation.
     
    #62 Van, Mar 6, 2011
  3. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    come on, I was trying to be nice. James 2:5 says nothing about a person being chosen BECAUSE he is in faith. You are reading something into the text. And since you mentioned "Greek grammar" why don't you share with us the "Greek grammar"?

    I already showed you 2 Thess 2:13 and how the grammar there clearly shows that "faith" and "sanctification" are for the salvation. God doesn't need to be sanctified nor have faith in order to choose us.
     
    #63 jbh28, Mar 6, 2011
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Claims that you have demonstrated this or that carry no weight. Your rebuttal was errant.

    If you understood the grammar of James 2:5, you would understand they were chosen as "rich in faith." And 2 Thess 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth.

    If a person is saved through faith, that means faith is the basis of salvation. It is like saying enter the room through the door. You must go through the door in order to enter the room, and you must have faith that God has credited as righteousness in order to be chosen for salvation.
     
    #64 Van, Mar 7, 2011
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    "God doesn't need to be sanctified nor have faith in order to choose us."

    Now that is quite a bunny trail. :)
     
    #65 Van, Mar 7, 2011
  6. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    The problem is that the neither the word "because" and nor the words "to be" are in the text. Let's read it your way, then mine.

    We have to remember, there are two parts, not just one.
    "Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him"

    The two parts are, "rich in faith" and "heirs of the kingdom."
    Now, here's your interpretation.

    Hath not God chosen the poor of this world [because they are] rich in faith, and [because they are] heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him"

    here's why I don't like that. Chosen for what? The verse doesn't say. God has chosen the rich in faith and the heirs to the kingdom because they are rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom.

    My view.

    Hath not God chosen the poor of this world [to be] rich in faith, and [to be] heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him"

    remember, when election happened, it was before you and I were born (Ephesians 1:4).

    And of course, the NASB and the ESV translators agree with me on this passage.

    Here's the NASB rendering.

    Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

    I understand that the words "to be" are not in the Greek, but according to the NASB translators, it is implied. That's why the NASB put the words "to be" in italics.

    In the KJV, it almost seems as if God is choosing those that are poor and rich in faith. But if we are going to use the word "because" we must use it with poor as well.
     
    #66 jbh28, Mar 7, 2011
  7. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    please share...
    it doesn't say "chosen through belief" so please stop saying that it does. You are taking words out.
    I have always maintained that salvation is through faith. But nowhere does it say we have to have faith in order to be chosen.
     
    #67 jbh28, Mar 7, 2011
  8. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    If you are going to apply that to the choosing, God remember is the one choosing. Does God choose through faith? No, we are saved through our person faith. We are saved though our person sanctification of the spirit. God isn't sanctified in the spirit in order to choose us.
     
    #68 jbh28, Mar 7, 2011
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I believe God in psalm14....and Paul did to, that is why he quotes it in rom3
     
    #69 Iconoclast, Mar 7, 2011
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    It is not for you ,or anyone else to change the meaning God has assigned to the scripture.

    here is more error;
    [QUOTECalvinism must reject James 2:5 and therefore they defend the rejection with alternate interpretations of the Greek grammar. But clearly the poor where chosen, and they were of the world. So even if Calvinists deny they were chosen because of their faith, as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, there is no getting around the fact that the election for salvation occurring during their lifetime and not before creation.
    ][/QUOTE]

    No one is chosen because of faith, No one is saved because of faith..it is always by, or through faith,,,never because of.
    election happened before the world was created...not during our lifetime.
     
    #70 Iconoclast, Mar 7, 2011
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  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You misuse this verse as he speaks of calling the apostles out of the world.

     
    #71 Iconoclast, Mar 7, 2011
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    God commands all men everywhere to repent....you are bearing false witness when you say this;
     
    #72 Iconoclast, Mar 7, 2011
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Again you oppose scriptural truth;
    This is bible 101.....and you resist it.
     
    #73 Iconoclast, Mar 7, 2011
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In choosing Christ Jesus as the elect servant, he does not choose Him in a vacuum. We are chosen In Him, In union with Christ,He comes and dies a covenant death for His elect.
     
    #74 Iconoclast, Mar 7, 2011
  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    James is rebuking those Jews who held the poor in contempt. He is simply showing them this is wrong by stating the fact that God has chosen the poor who are rich in faith, and also saying they are the heirs of the kingdom. It is simply a statement of fact in the form of a rhetorical question that demands a "yes" answer.
    And what a shock that the MVs add "to be"! So much for those who claim there is no difference. You admit these words are not in the Greek but prefer them because it agrees with your doctrine.
     
    #75 Winman, Mar 7, 2011
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  16. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Yes, you are completey going off the tracks here jbh28, this reasoning makes no sense at all.

    We are required to have faith to be saved. Faith in Jesus is the one and only condition required for salvation. So how can you be elect without faith?

    But this does not require God to have faith in order to make a choice at all.
     
    #76 Winman, Mar 7, 2011
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  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reply to Iconoclast

    Hi Iconoclast, you wrote:

    "You misuse this verse as he speaks of calling the apostles out of the world."

    I came to this board hoping to achieve a more accurate understanding of scripture, and today, my hope and prayer has been answered. You are correct, I have been misusing John 15:19 as a supporting verse for election for salvation occurring when we are alive and living in the world. He was choosing, not calling, His apostles and disciples, those who had been with Him from the beginning of His public ministry.

    This course correction does not in any way invalidate the point I was supporting, it just knocks out one errant support. We still have 1 Peter 2:9-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-28, Romans 8:33, 2 Timothy 2:10, 1 Peter 1:2, and Revelation 17:14.

    BTW, In Revelation 17:14, we see a nice summary verse of my Soteriology, those that are with the Lord are those who are the called and chosen and faithful.

    When are called? When we hear the gospel during our lifetime, and when we respond to the gospel affirmatively and God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, we become "the called" and are chosen through our belief in the truth.

    When God accepts our faith as sufficient for His purpose and spiritually baptizes us into Christ we are the chosen (being placed in Christ by the Spirit) and during our spiritual baptism God converts us and protects our faith and gives us the Holy Spirit to help us walk humbly with our Lord, and therefore we are faithful in core beliefs, even if we stumble and enter heaven as one escaping from a fire.

    In choosing Christ Jesus as the elect servant, he does not choose Him in a vacuum. We are chosen In Him, In union with Christ,He comes and dies a covenant death for His elect.
    I think this view has been fully shown to be in error. Everyone is born spiritually dead, and we become alive with Christ when we are spiritually placed in Christ. So the union found in scripture occurs during our lifetime. We were chosen in Him corporately, because your view requires that God elect us individually twice.
     
    #77 Van, Mar 7, 2011
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  18. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    Again, if you are going to say that God chose "because"(a word that isn't there) they are rich in faith, you must also say "because" they are poor. They are right there together.

    there is no difference when you interpret Scripture properly.
     
    #78 jbh28, Mar 7, 2011
  19. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    No, I'm just showing you how he is applying the verse. It says "salvation through sanctification... and belief" not "election though..." We are saved through personal faith in Christ, that is true. You are elected before the foundation of the world. Did you have faith then?
     
    #79 jbh28, Mar 7, 2011
  20. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I have found these verses to be instructive in a discussion of foreknowledge:

    Galatians 1:15 (Paul writing) But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased....

    Isaiah 49:1 (Isaiah writing about himself) Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name.

    Jeremiah 1:5 (Jeremiah quoting God) Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

    Hmmm, God knew Jeremiah before he was born, actually knew him before he was conceived. God knew. Before. Can you say foreknew?

    In each case, God is the actor, not the reactor. He is the one who calls; before they were born, before they were saved.

    I think in each case, God's foreknowledge involved whom he foreknew, not what.
     
    #80 Tom Butler, Mar 7, 2011
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