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Bible translation is a business

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by BobinKy, Sep 2, 2010.

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  1. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Part 2

    Let me just say that making it clearer is NOT a reason for a copier to add to a manuscript and that is the reason you said the KJV is better because it makes it clearer. Let's hope it was in the original. But, do you know for sure?
     
    #61 Phillip, Sep 4, 2010
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    So what do you do if there's any Scripture that is a little confusing? You ASK. Plain and simple. If you had gone ahead to a trusted spiritual leader (a father, pastor, elder, teacher, etc.), I'm sure they would have easily explained rather than leaving you in your ignorance.

    No - neither should it be misleading. If there is a question as to the heritage of a passage, should it not be made known to the reader? The KJV translators thought so:

    "REASONS MOVING US TO SET DIVERSITY OF SENSES IN THE MARGIN, WHERE THERE IS GREAT PROBABILITY FOR EACH

    Some peradventure would have no variety of senses to be set in the margin, lest the authority of the Scriptures for deciding of controversies by that show of uncertainty, should somewhat be shaken. But we hold their judgment not to be sound in this point. For though, "whatsoever things are necessary are manifest," as S. Chrysostom saith, [S. Chrysost. in II. Thess. cap. 2.] and as S. Augustine, "In those things that are plainly set down in the Scriptures, all such matters are found that concern Faith, Hope, and Charity." [S. Aug. 2. de doctr. Christ. cap. 9.] Yet for all that it cannot be dissembled, that partly to exercise and whet our wits, partly to wean the curious from the loathing of them for their every-where plainness, partly also to stir up our devotion to crave the assistance of God's spirit by prayer, and lastly, that we might be forward to seek aid of our brethren by conference, and never scorn those that be not in all respects so complete as they should be, being to seek in many things ourselves, it hath pleased God in his divine providence, here and there to scatter words and sentences of that difficulty and doubtfulness, not in doctrinal points that concern salvation, (for in such it hath been vouched that the Scriptures are plain) but in matters of less moment, that fearfulness would better beseem us than confidence, and if we will resolve upon modesty with S. Augustine, (though not in this same case altogether, yet upon the same ground) Melius est debitare de occultis, quam litigare de incertis, [S. Aug li. S. de Genes. ad liter. cap. 5.] "it is better to make doubt of those things which are secret, than to strive about those things that are uncertain." There be many words in the Scriptures, which be never found there but once, (having neither brother or neighbor, as the Hebrews speak) so that we cannot be holpen by conference of places. Again, there be many rare names of certain birds, beasts and precious stones, etc. concerning the Hebrews themselves are so divided among themselves for judgment, that they may seem to have defined this or that, rather because they would say something, than because they were sure of that which they said, as S. Jerome somewhere saith of the Septuagint. Now in such a case, doth not a margin do well to admonish the Reader to seek further, and not to conclude or dogmatize upon this or that peremptorily? For as it is a fault of incredulity, to doubt of those things that are evident: so to determine of such things as the Spirit of God hath left (even in the judgment of the judicious) questionable, can be no less than presumption. Therefore as S. Augustine saith, that variety of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures: [S. Aug. 2. de doctr. Christian. cap. 14.] so diversity of signification and sense in the margin, where the text is no so clear, must needs do good, yea, is necessary, as we are persuaded. We know that Sixtus Quintus expressly forbiddeth, that any variety of readings of their vulgar edition, should be put in the margin, [Sixtus 5. praef. Bibliae.] (which though it be not altogether the same thing to that we have in hand, yet it looketh that way) but we think he hath not all of his own side his favorers, for this conceit. They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other. If they were sure that their high Priest had all laws shut up in his breast, as Paul the Second bragged, [Plat. in Paulo secundo.] and that he were as free from error by special privilege, as the Dictators of Rome were made by law inviolable, it were another matter; then his word were an Oracle, his opinion a decision. But the eyes of the world are now open, God be thanked, and have been a great while, they find that he is subject to the same affections and infirmities that others be, that his skin is penetrable, and therefore so much as he proveth, not as much as he claimeth, they grant and embrace."
     
    #62 annsni, Sep 4, 2010
  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Well, the fact is a regular poster here said the NIV gave her the complete opposite impression than what the KJB said.

    And you summed it up when you said I DON'T KNOW. We are saved by faith, by trusting God at his word. Faith is essential and fundamental to scripture. How can you have faith when you are confused and don't know if "without a cause" belongs in Matthew 5:22 or not, or if the last passage of Mark should be there or not? You can't. These footnotes cause confusion and doubt, the very opposite of faith.

    The arguments you MVs put forward are beyond ridiculous and defy all common sense and logic.
     
    #63 Winman, Sep 4, 2010
  4. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    If there is a footnote, and you didn't include it saying that the NIV doesn't have the phrase you say, it is a lie because it is there. It's in my NIV and it's in Blue Letter's website. But you chose to ignore it. Why?
     
    #64 annsni, Sep 4, 2010
  5. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    OK

    Okay, Win, you are trying to derail the train to a KJVO fight among brothers again. We answered you and you may reply. I do appreciate that you do not call people names or attack directly in the ones I have read today, but let's get back to the "Is Bible Translation a business" or I will have to close the thread and you can then open one not related to the Translation business.

    Comparing translations doesn't seem to have a lot to do with whether or not it is a business.

    If you will read your history and find out that it was stamped the "Authorized Version" because the printer was allowed by the king (for a fee I would imagine, I don't know that) to just print the KJV. At first only one printer was allowed and soon another one came online. Both used the Authrized Version Like a copyright because they claimed ownership and the Americans started bootlegging them. This caused a lot of problems and if you also own a monopoly like the KJV was then it was the biggest business.

    How many people were killed because they slipped in a Geneva or other translation? Was it not against the law to print the KJV without the King's permission? Most people think Authorized came from some holy sanctimony, but it was a copyright stamp so people knew they were buying a book printed by a printer who was in turn probably kicking back a certain amount to the King. People keep ignoring that little quirk. Bootlegging was a major problem when the Americans started rebealing.

    Pls again pardon my spelling I'm on a mini-laptop and it does not fit my hands.

    Thank you

    "Back to BUSINESS Now" ---- Little joke for those of you who got it.
     
    #65 Phillip, Sep 4, 2010
  6. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Well - see - this is so confusing. Because Scripture tells us that we're saved by grace (not faith) but then it says we're saved by works. Wow - I'm so confused. I guess I'll stop reading the Bible since it causes confusion.

    Pretty stupid argument, don't you think?

    What I find sad is that you say this against any version that is not KJV yet it is the KJV argument that is just this side of heretical. It's an idol that will be dealt with by God one day and I will honestly have no pity since the truth is available to all but they choose to be foolish and not see.
     
    #66 annsni, Sep 4, 2010
  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I have said several times now that when someone translates the scriptures into another language they are doing it to carry the Word of God to the world.

    I have my own opinions about Wescott and Hort's translation. I do not believe they did it for money, but I do believe they did it to line up with their personal beliefs which leaned heavily toward the Catholic church. That is my opinion.

    I am sure some have made a real attempt to make the scriptures easier to read and understand for the common man.

    But I also believe that many versions are printed solely to make money.

    And I am not trying to derail the thread, I am saying that many versions are printed to make money and not to edify the church. And they do not edify the church, they cause doubt and confusion.
     
    #67 Winman, Sep 4, 2010
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    And every KJV makes someone money. I just went to CBD's website and searched on the KJV. There are 939 results. 939 KJV Bibles that are available. As comparison, there are only 642 results for the NIV, 65 for the NASB (not updated) and 228 for the ESV. So who's making money??
     
    #68 annsni, Sep 4, 2010
  9. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    The KJV is in the public domain. Anyone can copy it to their heart's content.

    The NIV is copyrighted by Biblica, Inc. They expressly forbid anyone making copies.

    NASB is coprighted by The Lockman Foundation. Copying is not permitted.

    ESV is copyrighted by Crossway Bibles. Copying is not permitted.
     
    #69 matt wade, Sep 4, 2010
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Yet the KJV is still published - and makes money for the publisher. The only reason the KJV is "public domain" is because it's over 50 years old. Let the others get to 50 years, and they also will be public domain.
     
    #70 annsni, Sep 4, 2010
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    It is not wrong to make money printing and selling Bibles. It takes labor and materials to print any Bible, and the workman should be paid for his labor and expenses.

    Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

    Of course, some today believe the laborer's hire should be given to someone else who did not labor for it, not mentioning names.

    But we shouldn't be printing corrupt versions simply to make money. Do you really believe all of these various versions are doctrinally sound?

    And if there are more sites selling the KJB it is because there is a greater demand. Folks don't stock Bibles that do not sell.
     
    #71 Winman, Sep 4, 2010
  12. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I agree. That is why we stand with all of the versions that are not corrupt such as the KJV, NASB, ESV, NIV and the like.

    I have personally used and will continue to use the above 4 versions. I can guarantee you that these 4 are doctrinally sound. I admit that I have not looked into every version out there but I do believe that there are a great number more that are also doctrinally sound.

    Or maybe it's the publishers trying to make more money. Making more kinds of Bibles in the same version does just that.
     
    #72 annsni, Sep 4, 2010
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  13. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    #73 annsni, Sep 4, 2010
  14. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    So, everybody should follow your opinion? What makes you the authority on which versions are correct? And in my opinion, any version based on the Critical Text is corrupt. And there are millions who agree with me. That doesn't mean I am correct, I am just saying many disagree with your opinion.

    [off topic]
     
    #74 Winman, Sep 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2010
  15. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    [off topic]
    Well, as far as the main version, we use the KJV. It's much better as a church to have one version that we use. Now for the individual and the version he uses or brings to church, we do not dictate which translations to use. If anybody asks me, I usually say the ESV, NASB, NKJV in addition to the KJV. Not saying that there are not other good translations, but these I'm familiar with and recommend. Personally, I think 200+ is too many. Many are not really translations though and are really paraphrases. (Like the Message...)
     
    #75 jbh28, Sep 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2010
  16. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Please don't be distracted by the attempt being made to derail this thread.
     
    #76 NaasPreacher (C4K), Sep 5, 2010
  17. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    Not exactly true. If you actually read the copyrights (few people do), you will see that in most cases you are allowed to copy verses wihout needing to pay a royalty.

    Copyright Information

    The NIV text may be quoted in any form (written, visual, electronic or audio), up to and inclusive of five hundred (500) verses without express written permission of the publisher, providing the verses do not amount to a complete book of the Bible nor do the verses quoted account for twenty-five percent (25%) or more of the total text of the work in which they are quoted.


    Copyright Information

    The "ESV"; and "English Standard Version" are trademarks of Good News Publishers. Use of either trademark requires the permission of Good News Publishers.



    When quotations from the ESV text are used in non-saleable media, such as church bulletins, orders of service, posters, transparencies, or similar media, a complete copyright notice is not required, but the initials (ESV) must appear at the end of the quotation.



    Publication of any commentary or other Bible reference work produced for commercial sale that uses the English Standard Version must include written permission for use of the ESV text.



    Copyright Information


    Holman Christian Standard Bible ® Copyright © 2003, 2002, 2000, 1999 by Holman Bible Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.


    The Holman Christian Standard Bible text may be quoted for non-commercial usage in any form (written, visual, electronic or audio) up to and inclusive of one hundred (100) verses without the express written permission of the publisher, providing the verses quoted do not amount to a complete book of the Bible nor do the verses quoted account for twenty-five percent (25%) or more of the total text of the work in which they are quoted. Notice of copyright must appear as follows:


    Scripture taken from the Holman Christian Standard Bible ® Copyright © 2003, 2002, 2000, 1999 by Holman Bible Publishers. All rights reserved.


    When quotations from the Holman Christian Standard Bible text are used in nonsaleable media, such as church bulletins, orders of service, posters, transparencies or similar media, a complete copyright notice is not required, but the initials "HCSB" or the phrase "Holman CSB" must appear at the end of each quotation.


    Any commentary, Biblical reference, or other product produced for commercial sale that uses the Holman Christian Standard Bible text requires written permission of Holman Bible Publishers.
     
    #77 Mexdeaf, Sep 5, 2010
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Yes, you do. And you have been proven wrong time and again.

    And you are wrong again.How is the ERV more inclined toward Roman Catholicism than the KJV?

    That is the goal of most translations.

    So you have judged the hearts of numerous translators. You have personally determined that they are greedy money-grubbers.

    And how did you arrive at that bold conclusion?
     
    #78 Rippon, Sep 5, 2010
  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Entirely corrupt? Yet you don't believe in Total Depravity. :)

    I'd say that the number of folks holding to that opinion of yours is marginal.
     
    #79 Rippon, Sep 5, 2010
  20. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    When I speak of copying, I speak of the entire thing...not just verses. You can copy segments of any copyrighted material, it's covered under Fair Use.
     
    #80 matt wade, Sep 5, 2010
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