Featured Biblical Argument for Cessationism

Well, we are in agreement concerning the jibberish! No where do I read Jibberish in the Bible. It is a known language.

 

Then why don't you just admit (though I have asked you about a dozen times) that these manifestations have ceased.
In reality you are simply speaking of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as the entire chapter is.
What about the gift of healing. How was Peter able to heal all--thousands who came to him, all without exception (Acts 5:16)?
Who does that today? Names please. Places. Times. Evidence. Where is it?

The gift of tongues is the gift of languages--the ability to speak miraculously an unknown language to those that knew it. In contemporary times it would save missionaries a lot of time before going to the mission field. But it is not in operation.
If so: Who has it? Names? Places? Field of operation? Location, etc. Where is the evidence?

The gift of miracles. Both Jesus and the Apostles were able to perform miracles. There were some miracles that only Jesus could do that attested to his deity. Not even the apostles could replicate those. Others the apostles did to authenticate their office, and their message. Who today has this gift, and walks around performing miracles? Names, locations, miracles performed, etc. Where are they?

In the absence of ALL evidence, and the absence of all evidence for the last 20 centuries, we can conclude that these gifts have ceased with a fair degree of accuracy. You claim they exist but have no evidence that they do. That is blind faith. The Christian's faith is not blind. It is based on fact. I believed in the message of Christ because it is based in fact, that is, the facts of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. That is how I know I will get to heaven.
On the other hand a Muslim exercises blind faith, thinking that if he straps a bomb around him and blows himself up as a martyr that it will guarantee himself a place in paradise.
You are exercising the same kind of blind faith. It has no evidence based in facts.

 

If it were a language you would recognize it as a language, but you don't.
You are just deceiving yourself. Languages are recognizable, even if you don't understand what the language is. They have structure, variety in vocabulary, variance in tone, etc.
Today's tongues phenomena have none of those characteristics. You wouldn't be able to tell if you were whispering to a child or yelling across the field. There is no variety. There is no vocabulary. You wouldn't be able to tell if you are babbling to a child (well you are) as opposed to speaking to a learned scholar (which you aren't). Languages do have definite characteristics that even if you don't know the language it is definitely recognizable as a language and not as the nonsense the Charismatics gurgle out as gibberish.

 

So because you do not see these things with your own eyes... even though scriptures do not say the HOly Spirit or His manifestation will cease until the return of Christ...you do not believe?

If we don't believe in divine healing simply because we never see or hear about it, then we're basing our views on experience rather than basing our views on Scripture.

The New Testament shows that healings and miracles happen by faith. Do you know anyone who honestly expects a miracle to happen right in front of their eyes while they're praying for a sick person? Most Christians don't seem willing to step out in faith for miracles, so it's no surprise that they don't see any miracles. This is one reason why we rarely hear about any healings, and another reason is because we need to know what to do when we step out in faith.
I believe becausea the Word says it! THerefore I believe it! Even if I do not see it before my eyes.....Wait a minute...doesn't that describe FAITH!

Already debated this with you! Search out the other threads...

What miracles could only Jesus do?

Not blind faith...it is believing the Word of God! Have you seen your complete salvation yet? How do you know that you are saved..the totality of it has not manifested yet!
Do you see that you just described the opposite of faith?
Faith is..."...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

On the other hand a Muslim exercises blind faith, thinking that if he straps a bomb around him and blows himself up as a martyr that it will guarantee himself a place in paradise.
You are exercising the same kind of blind faith. It has no evidence based in facts.[/QUOTE]
NO, my faith is built upon the Word of God! I do not have to see it before I believe it.
A Muslim had faith in a false religion/false teachings...I have shown in scriptures what I believe! My faith is in the word of God..how about yours?

 

The Scriptures teach that the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased at the end of the first century, not that the work of the Holy Spirit ended. Do not put words in my mouth. It is called lying.
For the last 20 centuries there has been no evidence of these gifts. You can't give any. You can't point to any of these gifts being "manifested" today. So why do you claim they are being manifested today? To put it bluntly that makes you both a fraud and a hypocrite, doesn't it? Either provide the evidence or keep quiet about it. Don't keep claiming something to be true when you can't provide evidence about it.

I believe in healing and give you evidence of how God heals.
But there is no evidence anywhere in this world of the gift of healing such as Peter did in Acts 5:16. In our day of technological marvels, if such a thing would take place the entire world would hear of it almost immediately. Look, the entire world hears about it if a so-called image of Mary appears on a building in the U.S. How much more would they hear if thousands upon thousands were being healed with just the touch of a hand or even his voice "be healed." That is what happened. Read about it. The fact that it does not happen is evidence that the gift has ceased.

Look in Acts 5:16. They went to Peter for the very reason that they would be healed "right before their eyes." And they were. No one was turned away.

Your theology is all messed up. Clearly you don't know the first thing about healing. The people that came to be healed didn't have to have faith. Christ healed them in spite of their faith, in spite of the fact that they may not have even believed on him. It doesn't say in Acts 5:16 that all who were healed believed in Christ.

Now, what about healing in our times. What is the church's obligation for certain illnesses or occasions. Are there instructions given. Let's look:

James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
--Note carefully. The sick person comes to the elders or pastors of the church. The pastors pray for the sick person. There is no guarantee here. It is entirely up to God whether or not this person is healed. If you take the position that the person should be healed, then the onus is on the pastors. "The prayer of faith" shall save the sick. Whose faith? The pastors' faith. Not the sick person's faith, but the elders', the pastors' faith. The sick person doesn't even have to have faith. It is the faith of the pastor that heals, not the faith of the sick person.

If those faith-healing crusades were of God, and those people left not healed then the failure would be the failure of the faith-healer, not the sick person. But oh so cruelly he blames the sick person, and blames that poor sick person that his faith was not great enough. He is wrong. It was his faith, the faith-healer's faith that was not great enough. He is a cruel man to blame a poor sick man that has been sick all his life to tell him he has not enough faith, all the while this fraud is making money hand over fist from these people. The Bible calls them false prophets "who make merchandise of the people." And so they do.

You don't see it because the gift of faith has ceased. You may see an occasional healing in answer to prayer but that is about all. The gift of healing has ceased. And that is why you lack the evidence. You don't have any.

So you have, and you still cannot provide evidence of anyone on earth today that has the Biblical gift of tongues. No one goes to the mission field today without first studying the language. Why is that? Tongues has ceased. There is no evidence that the gift is in operation. You don't have any.

He calmed the waters of the sea--power over nature.
He fed the five thousand with just a few fishes and some bread.
He raised the dead (Lazarus had been dead and buried for four days).
He turned water into wine.
He walked on water, and bade Peter to do the same.
And greatest of all was his own resurrection from the dead.
None of these have ever been duplicated.

I was saved and justified when I put my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I know that on the authority of the Word of God. See my signature line. I know I am saved because God's Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am his child. Does God's Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God?

No I have not. Faith is not blind. Faith is grounded in fact. If yours is not grounded in fact then perhaps you are not saved.

This is a description of faith, but not a definition of faith.
Here is a definition of faith:

Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--Faith is being fully persuaded that what God has promised, God will do. It is based in the promises of God. It is based in fact.

I wasn't talking about the content but rather the action or basis of your belief. You believe without evidence. That is blind faith. The Muslim believes he will go to paradise without evidence. You believe the gifts are for today without evidence. That is blind faith. You both exercise blind faith because you believe without any evidence.

My belief is anchored in the Word of God. My faith has an object. Its object is Jesus Christ. It is grounded in the facts of the Word of God. You don't have that. All you have is your own unbiblical experiences that are not grounded in the Word of God. And your experiences are novel. They were unheard of until 1905, and before that only paganism and cults practiced them.

 

Not going to rehash with you anymore..study out faith!
Example..
Abraham believed without evidence
Noah built the ark before ever seeing rain
Many more..they believed that what was said would come to pass, even if it took years.
You seek after a sign before you believe! I believe the Word of God about tongues and it manifest in my life. That is not blind faith! I believed my heavenly Father!
Don't say I received something from my father that is of the devil! Because what Father would give their child something of the Devil! I asked what He said I could ask for!...and I received!
THe power of the Holy Spirit is for all that are called!

 

I will take a few of these...
He did not say that they could not do these things...read and see why they could not. Lack of faith! He was teaching them how the Holy Spirit could be manifested. They were in the teaching stages!
It was by the Power of the Holy Spirit that all that took place. The same power is available to us! The Holy Spirit does not lack power! But we do lack faith!
Peter did walk on water...why did he start sinking..fear the opposite of faith!
And the same power that resurrected Him from the dead will some day resurrect us!
It was not that they could not do them...they were just not called to do some of them. You have to keep in mind it is not US that can do anything! It is Him!

 

AND...he promised the Holy Spirit! That is one of His promises! Your problem is that you are denying the power. YOu are not full persuaded of the truth that is in God's Word. How can you manifest something you do not believe?

Again, I believed and I have manifested! Not all but what He willed me too!

 

In each case they acted in faith, and their faith was based on the promises of God which they heard and received. Their faith was not blind. They received the promise of God, and acted on the promise of God.
If I tell my daughter I will give he a birthday present, she has faith that I will keep my promise to her. The object of her faith in that case is me. The object of their faith was God and his promises to them. They trusted the Lord implicitly.

The sign gifts have ceased. You are seeking after something that doesn't exist. You are seeking after something that the Lord said is gone. The Bible says it has ceased. That is backed up by history which gives evidence that it has ceased. That is backed up by our own present generation in which absolutely no one in our world today is exhibiting these gifts. You are living in your own dream world saying one thing, claiming its existence, and denying the reality thereof. It doesn't exist. If it did you would be able to point out the reality.

You are like a sad and depressed person telling the world how happy you are. Where is the evidence they say?
I am not seeking after a sign at all. You are. I am seeking for you to give me evidence of the signs you "claim" to have. But you have none. You live in a dream world, deceived and deluded into thinking you have something that you don't.

 

No, these are specific miracles that not even the apostles could do. They established his deity. He alone could perform these miracles and did, so that others would know that He was and is God.
Nicodemus said: "No man can do these thing except he be from God."
Nicodemus knew that Christ was the Messiah because of the works that he did.
He raised Lazarus from the dead, and Lazarus had already been dead and in the grave for four days. Even Mary said, concerning Lazarus, "By this time he stinks" referring to the degenerating process of his body. No one has that ability but Christ--the ability to raise someone already dead and buried, from the dead. No one could deny the authority and divinity of Christ. Then the Jews went about to kill him. You cannot do anything.

 

None of the sign gifts are for today.
None of the sign gifts are being manifested today by you, by any Pentecostal, Charismatic, faith-healer, Third Wave group, or any other such person. They have ceased no matter how many times you say they haven't. You sound so ridiculous claiming they haven't ceased and then unable to give any evidence that they are still in operation. Then you turn around and tell me that I am in unbelief. You are in denial of the Word of God. You don't believe its teaching and keep on denying them. That is unbelief.

 

I will say that the office of Apostle is no longer open simply because no one living qualifies as they must be an eye witness to the resurrection of Christ.

 

But you do believe there are more than 12 apostles, right?

 

I will address this personal attack one more time and then I am through debating with you, DHK!!

The Jews saw the miracles of God, went through the wilderness and saw the supernatural ways that God took care of them....yet! when they came to the promise land they were not able to cross over because of their unbelief.

That generation saw and still did not believe.
The generation that did cross over are the ones that did not see yet believed!
Which generation will you fall under? Don't bother responding! Just think it over! I am through debating with someone that is constantly attacking personally!

 

No................................

 

What about the post-ascension apostles mentioned in God’s Word, like Andronicus and Junias (Rom. 16:7), James, the brother of the Lord (Gal. 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:14), and Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25)?

 

Of that generation were Joshua and Caleb, both of whom did cross over, both of whose names are written in Hebrews 11. They were mighty men of God, both physically and spiritually.

They passed over not because they were believers, but because it was their parent's that were being judged for their unbelief when the ten discouraged them from going up into the land. When commanded to take the land, they too did not conquer the land as they were commanded.

The generation that Moses lived in was approximately 3,500 years ago. So you can make your calculations from there.

The Lord has placed me here--in the last half of the 20th century and the first part of the 21st century. I can't choose which "generation" I will live in. I can only choose how I will live it. I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, my Savior. I know that I am saved, and that I will never lose that salvation. My eternal destiny is not dependent on outward experiences, and neither is my inner joy. For the Lord himself is my joy and strength.

The gifts of the Spirit have long been gone. They have passed off the scene. If they were still here, someone would be able to point them out. That is only reasonable is it not? We don't see legitimate faith healers today because the gift has ceased. That is all there is to it.

 

its NOT a question of "having enough faith", its the principle of the Bible that the Gifts of revelation and healings amd miracles are NOT required for today, they served their stated purpose, to confirm the Apostolic message of jesus as messiah, and tongues were used by God to show the Jews that Others besides them would be saved by yeshua!

have to see that Acts is a transistion book between the Old/New Covenants, and that the Apsotolic Age was a "special case"

Just curious, are you a classic pentacostal as say Assemblies of God, or more into word of faith, modern day prophets/Apostles?

 

I am a Baptist...seeking out the truth! I am not sure what others denomination believe as a whole.
I am finding out that the Baptist do not have all the truth either!

 

If my church did not have "all the truth" then I wouldn't have joined it.
I look at the statement of faith, that which the church believes. There is nothing in that statement of faith that is contrary to the Bible, nothing that I disagree with. It ALL is truth. If I disagreed with it I would not be a member of this church. If I greatly disagreed with it I would not be a Baptist.

I have the whole truth in that the canon of Scripture is closed and I have the entire Bible. All I need to know about God and His Word is contained within the 66 books of the Bible. Charismatics don't believe that. They believe in an open canon, a continuation of revelation. I believe that is heresy, and therefore one cannot be a Charismatic and Baptist at the same time.

It is like saying "Can one be a heretical Baptist?" Not if he is right with God. If you were truly a Baptist you could not be a Charismatic. There are some here that came OUT OF the Charismatic movement when they became Baptists.

Yes, we do have all the truth. It is called "the Bible."