Biblical sufficiency

1. I see in these verses a forbidding of wine for the sake of drunkennes and its consequences and not total abstinence.

2. BTW, this is the book of Proverbs and should be interpreted accordingly.

 

I see in this passage a clear command for abstinence.

BTW, it is the Word of God and should be obeyed accordingly.

 

Brothers and Sisters, you can't argue with ignorance. Out of context reading will always hold to obscure views. Unteachable people can't be taught. It's the same way the WOF church has grown, out of context Scripture reading.

Nuff said....

 

Standingfirminchrist,

First off, let me say that I am quite offended by the implication that I am not “Seeking the truth.” Unfortunately, you have picked one verse, a proverb no less, and have sought to make that the “gospel truth.” Why is it that you don’t deal with other passages? Are you afraid you’ll have to change your position? Let me ask some hard and direct questions:

Genesis 14:18 (ESV)
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High.)

The word for wine here is yayin which means alcoholic wine. Are you then saying Melchizedek, whom Jesus follows in the priestly order, was wrong or sinned, because he had wine and brought it out to give to Abraham? What about Abraham, did he sin because he had wine?

Leviticus 23:13 (ESV)
And the grain offering with it shall be two tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, a food offering to the Lord with a pleasing aroma, and the drink offering with it shall be of wine, a fourth of a hin.

This passage tells that wine is to be given as an offering. The word is again yayin . Clearly, it was OK for the Israelites to have this alcoholic wine if they were to give it as an offering. Clearly it was OK for the priests to drink the wine since the priests regularly consumed what was given as an offering. Are you saying that all of the Israelites who partook of the wine were sinners because of their partaking? Are you saying the priests sinned in their partaking? The text certainly doesn’t say so.

Numbers 6:20 (ESV)
and the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the Lord. They are a holy portion for the priest, together with the breast that is waved and the thigh that is contributed. And after that the Nazirite may drink wine.

Context: The conclusion of the period (it was usually only for a time) of a Nazirite vow. During the time of the vow, the person was forbidden from drinking wine.

Again, the word here is yayin . What about this passage. This clearly says it is fine for a person who has completed the Nazarite vow to drink wine—and alcoholic wine at that?

Deuteronomy 14:26 (ESV)
and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Context: This passage is dealing with the laws about tithing.

The “new wine” word appears in v. 23, but in this passage Moses clearly and unequivocally tells the Israelites that they my buy whatever they desire including yayin (that is wine) and Strong drink, probably meaning fermented beer of some kind. So, by the clear teaching of Moses and the law, drinking wine and beer is OK for the Israelites to do!

What is more and quite scandalous is that the Israelites are told to eat and have their wine or strong drink before God Himself. The Hebrew means to do this literally “to the face of God.” How do you account for this?

How do you answer these passages?

The Archangel

 

Oh, Jerry...I know. As a person with a Bachelor's degree in teaching, I am always hopeful the unteachable will learn. I know I might be spinning my wheels, but I'm trying to do my part to dispel the darkness.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

here's how he has done it in the past...

Scripture dealing with wine and strong drink in a positive light = grape juice and juice mixed with spices

Scripture dealing with wine and strong drink in a negative light = alcoholic wine and liquor

Pure eisegesis...

 

And like the other poster, I too thank you for your time in delving into the Scriptures to find the truth.

 

The New Jerusalem Bible (IMO) catches the true meaning of Proverbs 23:31​

NJB Proverbs 23:31 Do not gaze at wine, how red it is, how it sparkles in the cup! How smoothly it slips down the throat!​

And it is indeed a warning of the deception of newly fermenting wine and its abuse because it tastes so good having the blush of the sweet and delicious fruit flavor along with the tingling of the carbon dioxide gas bubbles.​

It is deceptive. If you drink too much you will get drunk in spite of it's deliciousness and miserable sick as well​

This verse is akin to it​

Proverbs 22
20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.​

winebibbers: ​

5433 ​

abs' caba' {saw-baw'} ​

Meaning: ​

1) to drink heavily or largely, imbibe 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to imbibe 1a2) wine-bibber, drunkard (participle) (subst) ​

Another thing to remember is the environment of the biblical lands of Israel and Palestine and the times in which these verses were given.​

A time when the vacuum sealing of containers was unknown, refrigeration unheard of. ​

Grape juice will not remain unchanged into wine or vinegar but for a matter of days in the autumn when the grapes are harvested and the juice extracted. Grapes contain yeast in their skins. Without refrigeration, freezing or vacuum sealing of the juice containers, there was no way to stop the fermentation except by boiling the juice down to a paste.​

In addition, wine was used as a medicine as well as a food supplement.​

On the other hand:
Today we have many more options for beverages in sealed containers, frozen and/or refrigerated. The same with medicine. ​

Today we are not bound by the laws of nature (specifically fermentation) and have multitudes of choices besides fermented juices.​

Each should be convinced in his/her own mind while taking care not to offend.​

1 Corinthians 10
31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.​

Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.​

It's not a big sacrifice and it solves a lot of problems.​

HankD​

 

I notice you are in Loiusville. I got the slendid privilege of speaking to a class at Sotuthern Seminary last year and to visit the campus. What a wonderful and beautiful school.

 

By telling them it is ok to cloud their minds with alcohol?

 

Standingfirminchrist,

Your last post was, well, silly. Please answer the questions I posed to you. You have made your case from Proverbs, now defend your positon using the whole council of Scripture. Thank you.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Taken in account that God forbids the drinking of alcohol in Scripture (Proverbs 23:31), the wine and strong drink in Deuteronomy 14 cannot be alcoholic in content.

I am sorry you do not see that there were two different wines and strong drinks in the Word of God. They were not always alcoholic.

Context shows which was and which was not.

 

Doesn't it seem like your position is on shaky ground now that you have admitted that the cornerstone to your argument is your interpretation of Proverbs 23:31? This is the key building block upon which you interpret every other verse in the Bible dealing with alcohol, using it as a measure to determine how to redefine common ideas such as wine and strong drink.

Have you considered that Proverbs is not a book of commandments? If not, I do hope you don't visit friends or family without considering Proverbs 25:17, "Withdraw thy foot from thy neighbor's house..." The Bible says to "withdraw thy foot", not to "withdraw it after visiting for a few hours.". As has already been pointed out but I have never seen a response from you, "Look not on wine when it is red." So white wine is okay? Or do you make an allowance on that part and fudge the literal interpretation?

I know from previous threads you consider people who hold the moderation position fools. But Proverbs commands, "Answer not a fool according to his folly." You are surely in violation of this commandment, brother. But, next it commands to "Answer a fool according to his folly." So what to do? Are proverbs really meant to be strict commandments?

 

Answer not a fool with a foolish question, but with a wise one.

Study the Hebrew. You will find that the meaning of 25:17 actually means "Let thy foot seldom be in thy neighbor's house lest you wear out your welcome." It does not mean to never go to your neighbor's house.

It is not just the color, but the content and the character of the wine that Solomon warns against in 23:31. And, as pointed out, the surrounding verses actually strengthen the abstinence cause rather than weaken it.

Some just refuse to accept that which the author penned down concerning the command for abstinence.

 

Standingfirminchrist,

You could not be more wrong and your point about alcoholic wine and non-alcoholic wine being contextually known is indefensible. By definition, the word for wine, yayin is alcoholic wine. By definition “Strong Drink” is a grain-based, distilled drink that was, by definition alcoholic.

The only possibility your point has is the “new wine” word, which by almost every account is said to be alcoholic as well, so that ground is very shaky.

You have avoided my question, so I’ll ask it again. In my previous post, where I wrote all the verses (not an exhaustive list of the 140 containing the word) containing yayin (which, again, is by definition alcoholic), which one of those persons was considered a sinner for their consumption of wine and/or strong drink?

Your problem is a deeply scriptural one. If you continue to deny the actual meaning of the words, where does it stop? Will you take your personal meaning of “propitiation” over the intended biblical meaning? Will you take your personal meaning of what constitutes a “sin” or what it means to have “no other gods?”

The very nature of being a biblical Christian is based on the proper interpretation of words such as hilasmos (Propitiation) and hamartia (Sin). Then it should be the case that we seek to find the intended meaning of all the words. Wine is no different.

Certainly there are great and dire warnings against drinking, but it is never forbidden and is, in fact, encouraged at times of festival in the Old Testament. No one has to drink and as I have said before, I do not condone drinking and I do not encourage drinking. The problem, on the other hand, occurs when someone, such as yourself, takes your personal convictions about drinking and the Spirit requiring you to abstain and placing that personal conviction over the rest of the world as doctrine when the Bible makes no such claim.

In short, your problem is not with me or with drinking. Rather, your problem is an age-old problem: you take what you think to be true as law instead of what the Bible actually says. The Pharisees did this too. Jesus said to them, “…woe to you, scribes and Pharisees…” Well, you can read Matthew 23 and if the shoe fits…..

Many Blessings and prayers.

The Archangel

 

As always with SFIC, he will side step questions that point to his being wrong about his interpretation. He never answers these questions, as he is proving yet again with the question asked to him about commandments being in Proverbs.
QUOTE
yayin (which, again, is by definition alcoholic), which one of those persons was considered a sinner for their consumption of wine and/or strong drink?
UNQUOTE
He won't answer this, it flys in his face, in his interpretation.

 

No sidestepping on my account at all. If there is any sidestepping at all, it is in the moderation camp.

I cannot find one instance in Scripture where one drank an alcoholic wine that was not followed by a curse directly or indirectly.

Melchizadek did present Abram with wine as a drink offering. If one carefully studies out the drink offering, it was poured out on the altar of sacrifice, not drank. Abram did not drink any alcoholic beverage, so it is wrong to accuse him of such.

Nor did the Lord Jesus Christ.

As a matter of fact, we read in Daniel that Daniel 'purposed in his heart not to defile himself with the king's wine...' The king had shown his lack of wisdom and partook of alcoholic beverages. Daniel would not drink alcoholic beverages because had he done so, he would have dishonored the LORD God.

 

Where does it say it was a drink offering? He brought the bread and wine to Abraham, Scripture has to be twisted to think Abraham didn't take it and eat and drink. Where does it say Abraham didn't eat or drink that day? Was Lot saved? Was Noah saved?

 

Scripture does not say Abram drank the wine either. It only says Melchizadek brought forth bread and wine. It bever says Abram partook of it.

 

What did he do, throw it on the ground? If he didn't drink it, why is it even mentioned in Scripture? You also never answered where you know it was a drink offering poured out on the alter. Are your words inspired? Again, was Lot and Noah saved?

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.