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billy graham

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by massdak, Dec 12, 2002.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Yes, it IS worthy of a rebuttal, because I want to know, and other people want to know. Is this man's work trustworthy? Can I and my kids listen to his sermons and read his books without getting led into falseness? Is this someone I can recommend to new Christians?
    The Mormons claim Jesus is the only way to heaven to. So do most false religions and it usually looks good until you get into the truths of what they believe.
    I've asked about Graham in order to find out, looked up information, and found accusations. I've seen others ask about Graham, and the accusations are never directly addressed, it always leads to people defending him based on what he DOES believe that's right. What about the beliefs that appear false? Does he really believe those things? Do you have proof that he doesn't? If someone calls the police and reports that my kid did something wrong and has good evidence, it doesn't do me a shred of good to point to all the things I've done right. I'd have to show why the evidence is wrong.
    Gina
     
  2. romanbear

    romanbear New Member

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    Hi Everyone; [​IMG]
    Why are we surprised that Billy Graham isn't perfect?The man has done a lot to bring people to Christ but, even this doesn't make him perfect. Or even Christian for that matter. I've read some things that would make us all think that he's not what we thought. I agree with Pastor Larry that he is not following scripture .This doesn't mean that those who might have been saved as a result of the man's preaching aren't saved.
    We are all sinners. None of us is perfect.I remember back in the 50's people would wait to commit there lives to Christ until Billy Graham came to town.Just so they could do it on television.A lot of people actually worshiped him to a degree.Funny how some of us want to come to Christ and still have no idea what it means.For some it's just a show but, fact is fact and Billy Graham has been sending newly saved Catholics back to there priest.Priest That teach that the only way to heaven is through the church ;)
    SBCBYGRACE;
    Billy Graham no longer believes that Christ is the only way to heaven and most who do believe the scriptures do believe this don't you? [​IMG]

    "John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

    This verse is scripture is it not? Billy Graham does not believe this and by the way it's one of the most quoted verses of Billy Graham.

    Romanbear
    Peace
     
  3. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Gina:
    Read his autobiography (Just As I Am), most reputable biography (A Prophet with Honor), or any number of his books and you will discover his beliefs about the gospel. Listen to his sermons and you will discover the heart of his message. I would rather read the bulk of Billy Graham evidence and evaluate him than build an assessment based upon a few quotes employed over and over again with the intent of labeling him a compromiser.

    As I have said repeatedly, BG has said some things that will cause a fundy to turn backflips. I make no effort to excuse those statements. I do suggest that what BG does and says must be understood in a) context & b) BG's overall mission and purpose.

    About the most offensive message you will hear BG proclaim is the gospel of Jesus Christ itself. That is his cornerstone. So if you are searching for a host of theological statements spelling out what BG believes about every doctrinal issue, your search will be in vain. But if you want to get an overview of what he believes and proclaims, go to the sources I mentioned above.

    [ December 12, 2002, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: SBCbyGRACE ]
     
  4. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    Hi,SBC! We meet again! You really are a great guy! And your arguments all say the same thing,something about a box.... :confused:

    Anyway,SBC,can any statement made contribute to a a false understanding of the gosepl,or can anyone say anything to fit into your box....what if one statment is contrary to scripture,does that disqualify someone from ministering,IYO....? And,when Paul entrusted Timothy with the gospel in Titus,what did that mean....?
     
  5. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Billy Graham himself: "No matter who we are or what we have done, we are saved only because of what Christ has done for us. I will not go to Heaven because i have preached to great crowds. I will go to Heaven for one reason: Jesus Christ died for me, and I am trusting in Him alone for my salvation" (Just As I Am -- 728).

    You be the judge.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Then why did he say the things that he said as many times as he said them? If he had said them once, we could excuse it to mistatement, misunderstanding, out of context, etc. But he said it time and time again. He said it with Robert Schuller, in multiple magazine articles and interviews. Why do you not believe him?

    How do you know that God's hand rests on him?? The pope draws large crowds but God's hand most certainly does not rest on him. The Rolling Stones influence a large amount of people but God's hand is not on them. The point is that you cannot say with certainty that God's hand is on him. We can say with certainty that he has abandoned his once held position on many issues of Scripture. That would lead us to believe that God's hand is no longer on him as it once might have been.

    Again, these are not issues of emotion are you are prone to make them out to be. Personally, it does not matter what I or you or anyone else feels about him. The question is simple: Does his doctrine line up with Scripture? He has clearly said something that compromise that. There can be no serious doubt about it for those who are objective. I am not sure why the big rush to defend him anyway ...
     
  7. JIMNSC

    JIMNSC New Member

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    Let's all hope we can store up an "enth" of the treasures in heaven Billy Graham has! I'd be hard-pressed to come up with another name who has had as much exposure as he has, that has been shot at as much, and hit less than he. How about you?

    Although nobody is perfect, including Billy Graham, I've never heard any smutty accusations about him as with some other televangelists. Now, give me the name of one man/woman in his position that you guarantee that you can bank on every word they utter.

    Folks, Jesus said if the world hates you, know that it hated Him first.
     
  8. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Hey Molly. You really can't see the trees for the forest can you? [​IMG]

    Someone has to try make an effort to expose the inconsistencies of parameter dogma. ;)

    Yes (but you and I are not the omniscient determiners of everything right and wrong).

    My box is broad. Remember our previous threads. Most evangelicals have a place in my box.

    I hope not or we had better all turn in our resignations (especially if we are talking about matters of interpretation).

    Let's hear from Paul: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared ..."
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Should we not attribute this to a wrong view of Scripture then? When Scripture says Jesus is the only way and that faith in Jesus is required and BG says that there may be another way for those who have never heard of Jesus, whose side are you on?? This is clear cut. It is not a matter of interpretation. It is a not a matter of personal likes or dislikes. It is a matter of what Scripture says vs. what BG says.

    If he believes that Jesus is the only way, then why did he say what he said on several differenct occasions? Why has he not clarified?

    Can you not see that this is a serious issue that deserves more than simple glossing over. If he disagreed with us on the mode of baptism, or church government, or the eschaton, I could see your point. But this is not that; it is a major point of biblical theology and cannot be compromised without losing the very essence of Christianity.
     
  10. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    JIMNSC, I know of nobody who hates Billy Graham. Certainly nobody here has said they hate him.

    And the world doesn't appear to hate him, either. he is one of the more lauded evangelists by secular society.
     
  11. JIMNSC

    JIMNSC New Member

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    Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:

    And the world doesn't appear to hate him, either. he is one of the more lauded evangelists by secular society.

    Only secular society, Bro. Curtis? I know a ton of Godly folks that laud him also.

    Don't misunderstand me - I didn't mean to imply I thought anyone here hated him, but, I did notice some have posted numerous times here voicing their displeasure. You know, the old let's beat the dead horse thing. I feel if you keep beating the horse, you're either mean spirited or you dislike the horse. ;)
     
  12. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    it is good to point out error, i am sure some people respect billy graham to the point that anything he says they would believe.thats not disliking a horse, thats disliking error that hurts good doctrine
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    This is true. He is a man of great personal integrity. But I remind us that that is not the only issue to be considered. Nobody here is voicing a dislike for him. There are other issues involved.
     
  14. SueLyn

    SueLyn New Member

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    I've been on the BB for a year and a half, the Billy Graham thread reappears time and time again. :confused:
    It is obvious that some Baptists don't like BG, and that some do. As a little girl, if BG had a special on TV, my family watched it. I was always in awe after the sermon with the alter call. I've bought several books wrote by BG and even his son, Franklin. In other words, I've always liked to listen to Billy Graham. In my heart, I feel Billy Graham is a man sent by God, if others don't feel this way, it doesn't bother me in the least. The truth is I can dig up dirt on any past or present evangelists using the Internet, easy, very easy. There are many other evangelists that some prefer here on the BB, that I wouldn't give the time of day, but I don't bash them every time they are mentioned. Go to the Billy Graham website, make sure that you click on the very small button at the top of the page, that enables "flash", you'll hear that BG is still preaching the same message.
    And that's good enough for me. [​IMG]
    Billy Graham
    Sue
     
  15. romanbear

    romanbear New Member

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    Hi SBC; [​IMG]
    I in no way wanted to hurt anyone's feelings But since I heard Billy Graham on the Robert Schuller Interview make statements that do not line up with scripture, I cannot retact it.What I heard was not edited and I have to say that there is no way that you can be a Christian and never heard of Christ.You cannot be a muslem and be a Christian at the same time. I'm sure that you know this. Christ said we cannot serve two masters. How ever this is not word for quote from Billy Graham but if by chance you read Dave Hunts, "Berean Call" I believe there was also a collum in one of his news letters about the incident.Before you say, in your shock of what is now being said about him is a lie remember Jimmy Swaggert,Jim Jones.Jim and Tammy Baker a lot of people thought of them the same way you do about Billy Graham. [​IMG] We have all at one time or another put faith in someone that we didn't really know.
    Romanbear
    Peace [​IMG]
     
  16. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    As I have already said, I am not here to defend everything BG has said. I simply suggested one must consider: a) context, b) audience, c) source, and d) BG's purpose and methds.

    I knew someone would attempt the old "God must be blessing _________ because of their crowds" arguments. You must have missed my post when I prophecied of such arguments. You are a fulfillment of prophecy :D The argument is irrelevant to the discussion. Numbers are definitely not always a sign of God's blessing, but they definitely can be a sure sign God is at work (read Acts for example).

    If you want to argue God's hand is not on BG, that is your perogative. But I think the facts of those who have been converted as a direct result of God's working through BG's ministry would suggest otherwise.

    Actually I have no concern about what anyone on BB says or thinks (not intended to be as vicious as it sounds). This is merely entertainment for me. I am not an ardent defender of BG. I simply want people to realize God uses people who are different than our own small way of thinking.

    BG has not said there is another path to Heaven besides Jesus Christ. You are taking his words to an inclusivistic level that is not located in the words themselves. But this is not a discussion on inclusivism/exclusivism, so I will not spend time addressing it here. BTW, I am an EXCLUSIVIST and I disagree with BG's words on this subject matter. But guess what? He still believes Jesus is the only way to Heaven. Read the quote I gave above from his autobiography.

    Romanbear:
    I have never implied what was said regarding BG was a lie. Re-read my posts. And you have no clue what I do or do not believe about BG, so don't jump the gun. By no means do I have unwarranted faith in him. You might need to study your recipient before you attack him. And thanks for the brief Bible lesson ;)
     
  17. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Wow, four pages, and so far much of it reads like an excerpt from "Much Ado About Nothing"
     
  18. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    nothing?????
    did you read some of the websites provided concerning grahams doctrine. does liberal doctrine concern you?
     
  19. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Oh no, you used the "L" word!!!
     
  20. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Billy Graham interviewed by Robert Schuller on May 31, 1997:

    Robert Schuller: "Tell me, what do you think of the future of Christianity?"

    Billy Graham: "I think everybody who knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ...God's purpose is to call out a people for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, Buddhist world, the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ, because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus...and I think they are saved, and that they are going to be in heaven with us."

    Robert Schuller: "What I hear you saying is that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life even if they've been born into darkness and never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you are saying?"

    Billy Graham: "Yes it is, because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world...that have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God."
    ---------

    An interesting work dealing with Billy Graham and other leaders within the Evangelical ecumenical movement are discussed in Iain Murray's work, EVANGELICALISM DIVIDED.
    http://www.discerningreader.com/evdiviainmur.html

    ---------

    "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes..."
    - Romans 1:16
     
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