Billy Sunday rant a "sermon"

Unless it condemns a habit that is near and dear to your heart.

 

Good idea. Make sure your research includes the effect of his ministry on his family. He preached a lot about alcohol's impact on the family. It is interesting to note the impact his work had on his own family.

 

Exactly. Billy Sunday was a great evangelist and preacher.
His style might not be acceptable to some, but was to God.

How many pastors quote verse after verse and still aren't preaching the truth?

What about the pastor from the video everyone was upset about? He quoted verses. What about the pastor everyone was defending and his daughter has children out of wedlock?

There's nothing wrong with Billy Sunday. He did more in his ministry than most pastors can dream about.

 

There is a ghastly humor in the success the brewers have in enlisting the preachers to make common cause with them in discrediting this evangelist. Shrewd men have come quite generally to the conclusion that they will not give aid and comfort to the enemies of righteousness whose interests are best served by criticism of Billy Sunday. All incidental questions aside, Sunday does the Lord's work and is on the Lord's side. It is a pitiable spectacle to see the Lord's servants attacking him; though it is quite understandable why the liquor interest should spend large sums of money in antagonizing Sunday. It would be worth a million dollars to them any day if he could be put out of action.

Excerpt from the book 'Billy Sunday: The Man and his Message with his Own Words Which Have Won Thousands for Christ... by William T. Ellis

It is quite obvious that preachers who stand for the truth and against alcohol are still being attacked today as Billy was in his time.

It is sad to see he is still being attacked 73 years after his death.

 

To the shame of a large majority of pastors, this is their legacy (both in the past and presently). Read many biographies of old pastors or well known historic men who spent literally hours upon hours daily of private study, and then care of the church and FINALLY home. Many did not even see their families except early mornings and at night before bed.

It is not an easy thing to be doing that which you love and be completely aware of the time NOT spent with family. Those bio's I was talking about, most state if there was one thing they could change in their lives/minstry what would it be? They almost all stated "to spend more time with my family" (and this includes those who actually DID).

C4K - His 'work' didn't have the impact you are 'assuming'. First, were his children rebellious when at home, in the same manner as when they went out into the world and made their own choices? How many God-fearing Pastors do you know whom ALL their children (or even many) left home and REMAINED faithful to Christ? What percentage of pastors fall into such a catagory?

His work nor our work changes any man but the work of the Holy Spirit is that which reveals and changes. Regardless of how much love a person pours into their children that does not mean that any child will grow to be saved, God-fearing men and women out on their own. It is THEY who must choose.

 

You don't think that the fact he left his child rearing to another had an impact on his children?

How did you think they felt about a father they never saw? What do you think they thought a father who would was so caught up in his ministry that he had no time for them.

How would you feel if you had a father who preached about the evils of abandoning his children for the saloon abandoned you for his work?

 

Probably the same effect it had on the all those biblical character we love so much who were raised by others as well as their own parents, just as their parents raised them.
Those children were first raised by their mother and father. Then the father was preaching more and more as God opened the doors and his wife was there with the children till he came home and was there with them to. Further down the road his wife joined and helped him in his calling and they LATER aquired a nanny since Mr. Sundays wife was one of his strongest supporters as well as the MANAGER OF HIS CAMPAIGNS.

FACT - you DON'T know if there was any 'impact' at all by this. All you 'know' is that some of his children were rebellious and one not. What you are giving is pure and simple 'conjecture'. Those children had a choice to believe or reject CHrist. It was their choice which shaped their lives not the life that Mr. and Mrs. Sunday walked together. You keep slashing at him, but his wife was with him where they went.

How much time do you KNOW was spent with them? You must have statistics about time spent with his children, please share them
You make HUGE assumptions or at the very least large exagerations about 'a father they never saw'. They did see him and spent time with him and their mother who was WITH him (I think) for 11 or more years of his ministry.

I presume you KNOW this to. Great, please cite for us where you found this or give us their first hand accounts. You are simply SPECULATING he had 'no time for them'. Seriously C4K, I respect you in much of your posts but you have no proof but assumptions with regard the their father no spending time with them, seeing them, et..

FACT - You don't have the vaguest clue as to the amount of quality time was actaully spent with his children. Like many current fathers who work alot or biblical characters who were gone for days, weeks or months at a time, we don't see our children much or at least as much as we would like even for those who ARE home more often. Sometimes all we get are a half day to one day a week for any real time if your lucky. And I'm not talking about having ANY personal time for yourself or extra things you add to your time.

How much time is 'enough' time to spend with your child(ren), and your wife, and both together as a family, and your ministry (or ministries), and to God?

Again, you have NOTHING that states he 'abondoned' his children. Please cite any such sourse with his children or wife personally addressing such an issue. You WON'T find it. You are utilizing a word to discribe how you FEEL about what he and his wife did, but in fact is far from the truth. Do you know if any of their children asked their parents to stay or come home that they would or did not. No you don't know how much they loved their children nor if your personal opinion was what was reflected in the view of their children. All you know is that 3 of his boys were rebellious and his daughter was not.

 

I also know that he and his wife left left their child's care to a nanny and that his children did a great amount of growing up without their dad. That is a common fact that any amount of research will prove.

Sorry friend, I am not going to debate with you unless you can calm down and stop yelling (ALL CAPS) at me.

 

It isn't written in "ALL CAPS". There are certain words that are in 'caps' which is common in blogging to emphasize a word or connotation to be seen more clearly. I could have used the bold (same thing) and if I knew the 'caps' were offensive I would have done so.

You mean 'without their dad' and mom. I did not discount they had times where mom and dad were not home nor did I state it wasn't true. What I ask you to prove is that they have little or no quality time with their dad and mom. You kept stating things like his children "never saw" him, that he had "no time" for them, and "abondoned" them.

How many crusades did they take their children on? How much quality time was spent with their children? Did they spend more than a few hours a week or month with them? That is why yout presumption is nothing more that speculation without any real research put into it. You don't know much at all about their family life nor the life both he and his wife believed God asked of them and did.

If they believed they were being faithful to both God and their family with what they had decided, who my friend are you or I to make such claims against them or more specifically against him and not so much his wife? They were faithful to what they believed, were they or were they not? If they knew then what you know now, do yout think they loved both God and their family enough that with such knowledge it would have changed not only what but how they did things?

 

I suppose this is his famous message because of why?
If you were preaching to a bunch of alcoholics, wouldn't you point them to calvary? Where is it in this message?
He wasted all his time in this message preaching on the evils of alcohol..
But didn't tell them how to be saved from it?

Then I come across this in his message which is clearly a false doctrine because it is works....

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"A man comes along and says: "Are you a drunkard?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Yes, I'm a drunkard."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Where are you going?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I am going to hell."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Why?'[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Because the Good Book says: 'No drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God,' so I am going to hell."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Another man comes along and I say: "Are you a church member?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Yes, I am a church member."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Where are you going?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I am going to heaven."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Did you vote for the saloon?" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Yes."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Then you shall go to hell."[/FONT]

INteresting, I thought rejecting Jesus Christ would send someone to Hell.
Not how a person votes....

I am going to be fair, and look at most all his sermons..
I watched the video that Dale linked to, and if you haven't watched it, watch it. Even if you don't agree with him, it is something to watch!
In a way he reminds me of preachers that get on one bandwagon, and never get off of it... they fail to preach the whole counsel of scripture.
Actually he reminded me of John Hagee... which is on the bandwagon of prophecy. In that video, he spoke more to political issues than on Jesus Christ and him crucified....

but to be fair, I will look at the other sermons....
But if he doesn't exegete from scriptures, it is not sermons... it is good speeches at best, and rants at worst. Remember, even politicians were for prohibition back then, and gave great speeches....
and after reading Allan's link, I still wouldn't call it a sermon.



​

 

From his sermon on Backsliding... http://www.billysunday.org/sermons/backsliding.html
A friend of mine holding a meeting, asked how many who were present had been Christians, but were now backsliders. Finally forty fessed up. Then he asked them for the reasons for their falling away. Finally a man got up and said he backslid through believing that he could be a Christian and keep his store open on Sundays.
A young lady arose and said that she backslid because of cards. A friend had given a card party and she had to give one in reciprocity. She said she had invited a young man to attend, but that he didn't know what kind of a party it was to be. He came, but when he found out he said he was sorry, but he must go, for he could not stay there. "I admired him for his loyalty to his religion, he made me feel that I wasn't worthy to have my name as a church member," the young lady said.
Another man stood up and said: "I backslid when I voted for the saloon." You bet he did or he would not have voted for the dirty, rotten thing. Why, he backslid before he voted that ticket, or he wouldn't have voted it.
A young lady said: "I thought I could be a member of the church and dance." Sure she could. You can be a member of the church and a burglar too, but not a member of the body of Christ.

Ahem... works based.


I'll be back later.. got some things to do.

 

I have to be honest here, I know of a few exceptions, but for the most pastors, missionaries, and evangelists that I have know through the years and have prioritised their families have an amazing track record of raising children who grew up faithful to the Lord.

 

Billy Sunday always gave invitations but seldom will you find his invitations in his sermons. He left that to how he was lead at the end of his sermons.
Secondly, a large portion of his preaching against liquer was in Boston. But that was not remotely what he preach most often about. He preached the gospel most often.

Tim, you know as well as I do that this was not about a works based gospel.
It is the same as Jesus and the apostles stating similarly "you will know them by their fruits". The person claimed to be a christian and supporting something against (in his understanding) scripture. Much like if you asked a person if they are a christian and they stated yes, but then proceded to tell you they stand for the homosexual lifestyle. Would their salvation (in your mind) come into question?

He was convicted about alcohal and it's effects especially coming out of it himself. He was convicted of it, are you really going to say God didn't convict him of the corruption of alcohal, he might have gone further due to his own indignation of it but he still has a definate and even (in some to many cases) biblical point as well.

It is interesting to read the sermons of the Great Awakenings and revivals prior to his time. They all had messages against drinking of alcohal. He was not some lone gun man, he was just the loudest and most outspoken about it at a time when it was most poinent.

True and I can even agree with you, but something you can not nor can history deny is those hundreds if not thousands of people who came out of alcohal addition due to his preaching. It might not have been the most theological of sermons but it was definately Spirit moved.

To be fair, there are not a great many exegetical pastors historically. Even Spurgeon was not specifically exegetical (verse by verse) but is remembered as a great preacher, as was Moody and great host of others.

Here are 18 sermons of his (I think it is 18 at least )
http://www.biblebelievers.com/billy_sunday/​

 

Brother, most baptists, presbitarians and reformed pastors preached this way and it had nothing to do with a works based salvation. Notice it is about 'backsliding'. It is referencing the life one lead as a believer verses the life the world enjoyed and at that time in history dancing and was attributed to worldlyness or sinfulness. Most pastors (specifically baptists) preached this way alot. Funny thing is, he was presbitarian (Calvinistic).

I liked this part later on:

 

All I know about Billy Sunday could be written on a thimble. It might be summed up in the chorus of a Frank Sinatra song about Chicago. Wasn't Sunday's time period during Prohibition?

http://www.billysunday.org/timeline.php3

1862 November 19: William Ashley Sunday born in Ames, Iowa.
December 22: Sunday's father, William Ashley Sunday, dies of pneumonia at army camp in Patterson, Missouri. Sunday never knew his father. Later, when Sunday was a young child, his mother sent him and brother George to orphanage.
1883 May 22: Sunday begins baseball career with Chicago White Stockings; strikes out his first 13 times at bat.
1886 Sunday led to the Lord by Mrs. Sarah "Ma" Clarke at the Pacific Garden Mission in Chicago.
1887 Winter: Sunday coaches baseball team at Northwestern University.
December 31: Sunday proposes to Helen Amelia Thompson.
1888 Sunday traded from the White Stockings to the Pittsburgh Pirates.
September 5: Billy Sunday and Helen Thompson married at the Thompson home in Chicago; Helen subsequently known as "Ma Sunday."
1889 Daughter Helen Sunday born.
1891 Sunday sets record of 90 bases stolen in 116 games.
Philadelphia Phillies offer Sunday $400/month.
Cincinatti offers $500/month.
Sunday takes "secretary of relgious department" job at YMCA for $83/month.
1892 Son George Sunday born.
1894 Pittsburgh Pirates offer Sunday $2,000/month.
Evangelist J. Wilbur Chapman visits Sunday and hires him as advance man for $40/week.
1896 J. Wilbur Chapman takes a church and leaves his nationwide evangelism ministry.
1897 January: Sunday holds his first revival meeting at Garner, Iowa; nearly 100 people accept Christ during the week of meetings.
1903 Sunday ordained by the Presbyterian Church.
1907 Ma Sunday begins traveling with Sunday, handling his campaign planning and finances, and speaking at women's meetings.
1909 Homer Rodeheaver joins Sunday as soloist and song leader.
1917 Sunday's famous ten-week New York Campaign; the love offering (over $100,000) was given by him to the Red Cross and other World War I charities; over 98,000 came forward to accept Christ.
1920 Ma Sunday survives serious car accident.
1933 Sunday collapses while preaching in Des Moinse, Iowa.
Son George commits suicide.
1935 October 27: Sunday preaches his last sermon, at First Methodist Church, Mishawaka, Indiana; 44 people respond.
November 6: Sunday dies of heart attack.
November 9: Memorial Service at Moody Memorial Church, Chicago, attended by thousands.


His son George was a 40 year old man when he took his own life. Sunday dies 2 years latter.

Alcohol was the evil of his day and he preached against its use. Sure we could speculate that he should have preached more grace. However you must remember the time period. St Valentines Day gang murders, Al Capone, Buggsy Moran. Chicago was a very evil town. Looking at Chicago today it seems that the city is better for his sermons. Kind of reminds me of ancient Corinth and a Preacher named Paul. No doubt alcohol was promoted to Chicago's youth and as a ballplayer he had likely seen it's devastating effect on families.
However I will concede that Sunday's messages did not have the grace that Paul imparted to that town.

 

He was preaching against the sins of the world the same way preachers do today.

Unless you can win as many people to the Lord as this man did; how can you criticize him?

The Lord blessed his ministry mightily.

Heed the words of Jesus.

For he that is not against us is on our part.
Mark 9:40

And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Luke 9:50

 

Sunday hated liquor and there can be no doubting that. Liquor was the ‘Abortion’ issue of his day and brought many people of different denominations together. Sunday would partner with Catholics and anyone else when it came to opposing liquor and was very political as counties and states as they voted to go dry.

But he was also a preacher of the gospel. Wik says:

And

Before you judge this man perhaps you should read more than one or two sermons. I admit the two at billysunday.org are both more political than gospel. This web site has 18 others you can check out:

http://www.biblebelievers.com/billy_sunday/

 

That is not heresy. God doesn't force Himself on us.

We must do our part by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

 

I guess that all depends on how you define your part Dale. Even this quote defines it, believe and receive. Are you saying that men can be saved without believing? Now I would say that is closer to heresy.

For my own testimony there was a day when I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and I accepted Him as my saviour. And I believe that if I had not believed on Him I would not be saved. That was my part, and God himself did everything else.

I copied this quote from the Sunday sermon, "Atonement through the Blood of Jesus," at the biblebelievers.com link:[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

I see no errors in Sunday's application and understanding of the doctrine of salvation. Dale, please show me where you see heresy.[/FONT]