Birth control and Christian colleges.

Thank you. And now we know that you believe that pharmakon and its derivatives do not mean drugs in Revelation. In fact, if they don't mean drugs/remedies/medicine here in Revelation, they probably don't have that meaning anywhere in Scripture. That is your point.

This despite the fact that I gave definitions for all of the derivatives of pharmakon in a previous post. Again, you misstate my presentation of the evidence, claiming that I only defined pharmakon.

The evidence still stands that pharmakon and all of its derivatives can mean drugs/remedies/medicines, or potions/charms, or poisons.

It includes the idea of mixer of potions, or the use of witchcraft/sorcery.

Pharmakon is a generic term that includes the magic arts but is not limited to the magic arts.

I'm going to leave this argument to the assessment of others to read our posts and look up the information in the lexicons/dictionaries for themselves. I will let others decide for themselves who is giving the more accurate picture of the meanings of these words.

 

Repost of definitions previously given:

Liddell-Scott Lexicon:
pharmakos, a poisoner, sorcerer, magician

Colin Brown, Dictionary of NT Theology, II, 558:
pharmakeus, mixer of potions, magician (Rev. 21:8)
The basic word pharmakon does not occur in the NT, but its meaning of medicine, magic potion, poison gives the underlying idea of the words.

A Greek-English Lexicon of the NT, Bauer/Arndt/Gingrich, p. 854

pharmakon, 1. poison, 2. magic potion, charm, 3. medicine, remedy, drug

pharmakeo, mix poison, make potions, practice magic

pharmakeus, mixer of poisons, magician Rev. 21:8

 

The above three sources agree with me.

Gene has pointed out that you are reading your understanding of pharmakon as "sorcery" back into the first century text, when the first century audience would have understood "drugs" that may or may not be identified with black magic.

 

From Calvin's Commentaries, Galatians 5:19-21:

19. Now the works of the flesh are manifest. To obey the spirit and to oppose the flesh, are two great objects which have been set before Christians, and for the attainment of which they have been urged to make the most strenuous exertions. In accordance with these views, he now draws a picture both of the flesh and of the spirit. If men knew themselves, they would not need this inspired declaration, for they are nothing but flesh; but such is the hypocrisy belonging to our natural state, we never perceive our depravity till the tree has been fully made known by its fruits. (Matthew 7:16; Luke 6:44.)

The apostle therefore now points out to us those sins against which we must fight, in order that we may not live according to the flesh. He does not indeed enumerate them all, and so he himself states at the conclusion of the list; but from those brought forward, the character of the remainder may be easily ascertained. Adultery and fornication are placed first, and next follows uncleanness, which extends to every species of unchastity. Lasciviousness appears to be a subsidiary term, for the Greek word ase>lgeia, which is thus translated, is applied to those who lead wanton and dissolute lives. These four denote sins forbidden by the seventh commandment. The next mentioned is idolatry, which is here employed as a general term for services grossly superstitious and openly practiced.

Seven classes which immediately follow, are closely allied, and another two are afterwards added. Anger and hatred differ chiefly in this, that anger is short, and hatred is lasting. Emulations and envyings are the occasions of hatred; and the following distinction between them is stated by Aristotle, in his second book on Rhetoric: -- He who emulates is grieved that another should excel him, not because the virtue or worth of that person, in itself considered, gives him uneasiness, but because he would wish to be superior. The envious man has no desire to excel, but is grieved at the excellence of other men. None, therefore, he tells us, but low and mean persons indulge in envy, while emulation dwells in lofty and heroic minds. Paul declares both to be diseases of the flesh. From anger and hatred arise variance, strife, seditions; and he even traces the consequences so far as to mention murders and witchcraft. 1 By revellings, 2 he means a dissolute life, and every kind of intemperance in the gratification of the palate. It deserves notice, that heresies are enumerated among the works of the flesh; for it shows clearly that the word flesh is not confined, as the sophists imagine, to sensuality. What produces heresies but ambition, which deals not with the lower senses, but with the highest faculties of the mind? He says that these works are manifest, so that no man may think that he will gain anything by evading the question; 3 for what avails it to deny that the flesh reigns in us, if the fruit betrays the quality of the tree?


21. Of which I tell you before. By this awful threatening he intended not only to alarm the Galatians, but likewise to glance indirectly at the false apostles, who had laid aside the far more valuable instruction, and spent their time in disputing about ceremonies. He instructs us, by his example, to press those exhortations and threatenings, agreeably to the words of the prophet,

"Cry aloud, spare not; proclaim to my people their sins."
(Isaiah 58:1)

What can be conceived more dreadful than that men should walk after the flesh, and shut themselves out from the kingdom of God? Who will dare to treat lightly the "abominable things which God hates?" (Jeremiah 44:4.)

But in this way, we shall be told, all are cut off from the hope of salvation; for who is there that is not chargeable with some of those sins? I reply, Paul does not threaten that all who have sinned, but that all who remain impenitent, shall be excluded from the kingdom of God. The saints themselves often fall into grievous sins, but they return to the path of righteousness, "that which they do they allow not," (Romans 7:15,) and therefore they are not included in this catalogue. All threatenings of the judgments of God call us to repentance. They are accompanied by a promise that those who repent will obtain forgiveness; but if we continue obstinate, they remain as a testimony from heaven against us.

They who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. The word klhronomei~n signifies to possess by hereditary right; for by no right but that of adoption, as we have seen in other passages, do we obtain eternal life.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 "The original word farmakei>a sometimes denotes 'poisonings,' which were frequently practised among the heathens. Sometimes it signifies incantations or magic arts, or witchcraft, by which impostors and cheats endeavoured to impose on ignorant and credulous people, and which were carried on by poisonous intoxicating draughts and ointments, by which they did great mischief to the bodies of men. As it is here immediately placed after idolatry, I should imagine that the apostle intended those cursed arts of incantations and charms, those various methods of imposture and cheats, which were made use of by the heathen priests, to promote the idolatrous reverence and worship of their false gods. (See Revelation 18:23.)" -- Chandler.

2 By kw~moi are denoted those nocturnal revellings usually attendant on an evening of debauchery, consisting of licentious singing, dancing, and parading the streets with drunken riotings." -- Bloomfield.

3 "En volant nier, et usant de tergiversation." "By wishing to deny it, and by shuffling."

Anyone reading the list of Galatians 5:19-21 and reading pharmakon in the list instead of "sorcery" or "witchcraft" would immediately understand drugs/potions/poisons/remedies instead of magic arts.

Look at the footnotes at the end of the commentary.

Look at the context! The acts of the flesh are obvious: and then it starts off with sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, lover of self (idolatry), abuser of drugs/potions (pharmakon/sorcery), enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these!

These are the deeds of those who live in the flesh! That come from the flesh! Witchcraft, as an interpretation, doesn't even make sense in this passage!

 

Extensive catalogues of drugs/herbal remedies/medicines were in use during the time of the Eyptians and during the time of the first century.

If cashshap and pharmakon are not understood to be references to drugs/potions/remedies, then there is virtually no reference to healing drugs in the Bible.

Are we to understand that Moses knew nothing of the Eyptians pharmacies? Are we to assume that the apostles knew nothing of Greco-Roman medicines? Herbs, plants, leaves, and spices, no doubt made up the ingredients of the medicines used in the ancient world. How would these "remedies" be referenced in the Bible?

Take a look at the following:

Middle East medicine. The invention of writing was a focus around which herbal knowledge could accumulate and grow. The first written records detailing the use of herbs in the treatment of illness are the Mesopotamian clay tablet writings and the Egyptian papyrus. About 2000 B.C., King Assurbanipal of Sumeria ordered the compilation of the first known materia medica--an ancient form of today's United States Pharmacopoeia--containing 250 herbal drugs (including garlic, still a favorite of herbal doctors). The Ebers Papyrus, the most important of the preserved Egyptian manuscripts, was written around 1500 B.C. and includes much earlier information. It contains 876 prescriptions made up of more than 500 different substances, including many herbs (Ackerknecht, 1973).

[This is the exact time of Moses 1525-1405 B.C.]

Greece and Rome. One of the earliest materia medica was the Rhizotomikon, written by Diocles of Caryotos, a pupil of Aristotle. Unfortunately, the book is now lost. Other Greek and Roman compilations followed, but none was as important or influential as that written by Dioscorides in the 1st century A.D., better known by its Latin name De Materia Medica. This text contains 950 curative substances, of which 600 are plant products and the rest are of animal or mineral origin (Ackerknecht, 1973). Each entry includes a drawing, a description of the plant, an account of its medicinal qualities and method of preparation, and warnings about undesirable effects.

[This is the exact time of the apostles]

Pharmakon is definately a reference to drugs/remedies/medicine. In fact, I would suggest that it is probably the primary meaning.

 

Larry,

Read the footnotes. The difference between you and me is that I quote the whole source so as not to cover up what the source actually says.

The footnote defines pharmakia. Poisons, intoxicating draughts and ointments. Yes, sometimes it is used in the context of witchcraft. Notice the reference, though. To cheats and imposters who use pharmakon to confound the credulous.

 

Here's a list of herbal drugs (pharmakon) that can cause miscarriages or may prevent fertility.

Popular Herbal Remedies
There are approximately 400 herbs sold in capsule, extract, and tablet form, and also in the form of teas. Here's a rundown of some of the most popular and the risks for pregnant women. Keep in mind that even if there are no proven side effects, it's best to err on the side of caution and avoid herbal remedies until conclusive studies show that they're safe for you and your baby.

St. John's Wort
Uses: This herb is often taken to ease symptoms of depression and anxiety.

Possible Side Effects: This innocuous-sounding herb could actually be more harmful to expectant mothers than an antidepressant such as Prozac. St. John's wort may trigger uterine contractions, possibly increasing the risk of miscarriage or preterm labor.

A new study also suggests that St. John's wort can impair fertility in both men and women, so you and your partner should both avoid it if you're trying to conceive.

Alternatives: According to the American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Drugs, during pregnancy the use of tricyclic antidepressants such as nortriptyline is preferable to other types because tricyclics have the least sedative action and adverse gastrointestinal and cardiac maternal side effects. Talk to your doctor.


Raspberry-leaf tea
Uses: This herb is thought to ease the symptoms of morning sickness.

Possible Side Effects: Raspberry-leaf tea may trigger uterine contractions.

Alternatives: Studies have shown that ginger can help women with severe morning sickness (hyperemesis gravidarum) by making them feel less nauseated. However, before you take concentrated forms of ginger, talk to your doctor about any risks.


Echinacea
Uses: This herb is used to bolster the immune system and ward off colds.

Possible Side Effects: Echinacea has no known risks for pregnant women. But a recent study found that it may impair fertility. Ginkgo biloba was implicated in the same study, so if you're trying to conceive, avoid both.

Alternatives: Drink plenty of orange juice during pregnancy, as vitamin C is helpful to the immune system and provides the nutrition you and your baby need.


Feverfew
Uses: This herb is taken by some women who suffer migraines because, according to one study, it may reduce the frequency and severity of these headaches by as much as 70 percent.

Possible Side Effects: It's best to avoid this herb during pregnancy, because it may induce bleeding, possibly causing miscarriage.

Alternatives: Try using reflexology or massage to help alleviate headache-inducing stress. Take a long, steamy shower with eucalyptus shower gel to help clear headache-causing inflamed sinuses. And if you do get a headache, rest in a quiet, darkened room and relax with a cool compress on your head.


Ginseng
Uses: Ginseng has many purported (but unproven) benefits, including enhancing concentration and fighting stress.

Possible Side Effects: One small study found a threefold increased risk of gestational diabetes in pregnant women who used it.

Alternatives: To decrease stress and improve overall energy levels and mental focus, try a pregnancy exercise class or yoga approved for pregnant women.

The Bottom Line
For now, herbal remedies and pregnancy don't mix. If you're eager to avoid traditional drugs, discuss alternative therapies with your doctor.

For more information about how herbal remedies are regulated by the FDA, visit www.fda.gov.

Richard H. Schwarz, MD, obstetrical consultant to the March of Dimes Birth Defects Foundation, is past president of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists; chairman of the department of obstetrics and gynecology at New York Methodist Hospital in Brooklyn; and professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Cornell University Medical College in New York City.


The information on this Web site is designed for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be a substitute for informed medical advice or care. You should not use this information to diagnose or treat any health problems or illnesses without consulting your pediatrician or family doctor. Please consult a doctor with any questions or concerns you might have regarding your or your child's condition.

 

From the website: www.sisterzeus.com

Sharing our Wisdom
From the Womb
My vision for this page is this.....A place where women can share their experiences using herbs for contraceptive and abortive purposes, different things work for different people. We still have so much to learn about using herbs for these purposes. I want this to be a place where we can compare notes, to share what we did, what we learned from our experience with those who are looking for more information.

Clearly, pharmakon (NT) and cashshap (OT) are words meant to convey the idea of herbal remedies/potions. In contexts where sexual immorality is involved, pharmakon and cashshap may also carry with them the idea of abortifacient herbal remedies.

[ November 01, 2004, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Paul33 ]

 

From the Council of Ancyra, the capital of Galatia in A.D. 313:

Canon 21. Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfil ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees.

Canon 22. Concerning wilful murderers let them remain prostrators; but at the end of life let them be indulged with full communion.

Canon 24. They who practice divination, and follow the customs of the heathen, or who take men to their houses for the invention of sorceries, or for lustrations, fall under the canon of five years' [penance], according to the prescribed degrees; that is, three years as prostrators, and two of prayer without oblation.


So here we are, in the capital city of Galatia, setting guidelines for penance in regards to abortion inducing drugs.

And for sorceries or lustrations; who take men to their houses!

 

Here is an article that proves that the early churh understood what abortifacient drugs were.

Clearly, when pharmakon is used in the context of other words that describe "murder" and "sexual immorality", the first century Christians would have understood pharmakon to be abortifacient drugs and not just black magic.

The Early Church on Abortion
by T.L. Frazier
You can read the whole article at www.stnicholasla.com/abortion.htm

The Hippocratic Oath, formulated during the 4th century B.C. according to the doctrines of Pythagorean philosophy, had physicians swear not to give women the poisonous drinks then in common use to induce an abortion. Aristotle, on the other hand, had no qualms about abortion due to his speculative understanding of fetal development: the child possesses only vegetable life at conception, which is replaced by an animal soul several days later, and only receives a rational mind after a long period of development. Unlike Hippocrates, Aristotle was obviously no doctor.

Abortion was illegal in the Roman empire, and a woman who aborted her child could face exile. The one providing the potion for the abortion might even be sentenced to slave labor. Nevertheless, since abortions were usually the result of a poison that induced miscarriage, the crime could be difficult to prove.

Given the Christian understanding of the unborn child, it is hardly surprising that condemnations of abortion appeared early in Church history. Possibly the earliest is the pseudonymous Epistle of Barnabas, written in Alexandria, Egypt between A.D. 117-132. It states quite unambiguously: “Do not murder (Greek: phoneuseis) a child (Greek: teknon) by abortion (Greek: phthora), nor commit infanticide.” (19:5). Similarly, a Syrian Church manual known as the Didache (literally, “The Teaching”), written sometime before A.D. 140, gives the same stricture in the very same words: “Do not murder a child by abortion, nor commit infanticide.” (2:2:2). In both these early sources, abortion is condemned as the murder (phoneuseis) of a child (teknon), not a vegetative “fetus.”

Also condemning abortion in the second century was Athenagoras of Athens. Little is known about Athenagoras except that he was one of the great defenders of the Christian Faith known as the “apologists,” and in the title of his A Plea for the Christians he is called, “the Christian philosopher of Athens.” Writing around A.D. 177, Athenagoras states:

And when we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God’s care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child‑murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it. (A Plea for the Christians, 35:6.)

Frazier gives many more examples.

I want to call attention again to:

A Greek-English Lexicon of the NT, Bauer/Arndt/Gingrich, p. 854

pharmakon, 1. poison, 2. magic potion, charm, 3. medicine, remedy, drug

The first definition given is poison. Now look back at the Hippocratic Oath. It is obvious!

Larry says the early church couldn't possibly have construed pharmakon to mean poison, drugs, remedies.

I beg to differ. The evidence is overwhelming.

Does anyone need anymore?

 

Well Larry,

I've shown from the Hippocratic Oath that you are wrong.

I've shown from the writings of early church fathers that you are wrong.

I've shown from the Council of Ancyra that you are wrong.

I've shown from the modern use of herbal remedies that you are wrong.

There is abundant evidence that the first century Greco-Roman world of the biblical writers was very familiar with abortifacient herbal remedies.

And it is abundantly clear that the first century Christians would have understood pharmakon to be a reference to abortifacient drugs, especially when used in the context of other words like murder and sexual immorality.

 

"and they did not repent of their murders nor of their abortifacient potions nor of their immorality nor of their thefts."

"Outside are the dogs, those who practice abortifacient remedies, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

 

Larry, you are more slippery than a snake in a pit of olive oil.

So I didn't prove you wrong because you are ignorant. That is a rather hollow victory, but if that is where you want to stand, so be it.

You stated unequivocally that pharmakon does not mean drugs/remedies/medicine in the book of Revelation or Galatians. And you showed your ignorance when you said that you knew of no evidence that abortive drugs were available to first century Christians.

What in the world do you think pharmakon is? O yeah, magic arts limited to the use of idol worship. What do you think describes the pharmacies of both Eygpt and the Greco-Roman world?

I proved you wrong when I revealed the pharmacies of Egypt to you.

I proved you wrong when I revealed the catalogue of Greco-Roman drugs from the first century.

Here are references from the Complete Jewish Bible (since again you show your ignorance, still maintaining that there are no lexicons or translations that understand pharmakon to be drugs in Revelation or Galatians):

Rev. 22:15 - "Outside are the homosexuals, those involved with the occult and with drugs, the sexually immoral, murderers, idol-worshippers, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Rev. 21:8 - "But as for the cowardly, the untrustworthy, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those involved with the occult and with drugs, idol-worshippers, and all liars."

Rev. 18:23 - "For your businessmen were the most powerful on earth, all the nations were deceived by your magic spell."

Rev. 9:21 - "Nor did they turn from their murdering, their invovlement with the occult and with drugs, their sexual immorality or their stealing."

Galatians 5:20 - "involvement with the occult and with drugs; in feuding . . ."

And then, to show you that idolatry does not always have to refer to pagan rituals and the worship of false deities, Col. 3:5 says in the NIV:

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality (porneia), impurity (akatharsia), lust (pathos), evil desires (epithumia), and greed (pleonexia), which is idolatry (eidololatria).

Idolatry is sexual immorality, uncleanness, depraved passion, evil desires, and covetousness. Idolatry is the earthly nature, the FLESH! At least in this verse!!!

Ephesians 5:5 does the same thing. It connects three of these words, (pornos, akathartos, pleonektes) and says that a person who does these things is an idolater (eidololatres) and has no part in the kingdom of God. Again, in this verse, an idolater is a sexually immoral person! Nothing about idol worship in this context.

Every use of the word idolatry in the NT is in the context of sexual immorality, uncleanness, impurity, evil desires, revellings, carousings, orgies, drunkenness, etc. The list includes: Col. 3:5, Eph. 5:5, 1 Cor. 5:11, 1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Cor. 10:7, 1 Cor. 10:14, Gal. 5:19-21, 1 Pet. 4:3. That some of it refers to pagan rituals is not disputed. That all references must be to pagan rituals is disputed.

So pharmakon linked together with eidololatres would indicate potions/drugs/poisons to take care of the problem created by eidololatres (sexually immoral persons). In other words, ABORTIFACIENT DRUGS!

 

Larry said:

I am not disputing that the pharmakon word group does have the meaning of drugs, remedies, and potions. When you say I deny that, you are simply not telling the truth. I have not denied that. I never have.

Larry saying that pharmakon has nothing to do with drugs:

"The term in question has to do with magic arts. It has absolutely nothing to do with medical drugs or birth control. This is so far from reality, you have to be joking."

Well Larry?