Bishop John Spong re-thinks Heaven & Hell

The wages of sin is death (eternal); but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Temporal sin has eternal consequences. If a person had but told one sin, just one small lie, Christ would have had to come and die for that one person--yes, Christ, the Creator, the eternal One, sinless Son of God, would have had to come to die for just one, even if that one had only committed one sin.

Temporal sin has eternal consequences all the time.
It condemns to hell. There is no way to get by a Holy God except by the blood of Christ. Purgatory is a man's invention. It in no way can help the saint or the sinner on their journey to heaven. It is the blood of Christ (and the blood of Christ only) that cleanses us from ALL sin. That is what the Scriptures say, and that is what the RCC deny.

 

It is the RCC that refuses to understand their own beliefs in the light of the Scripture. That is the problem. Compare the RCC doctrine to the Bible and you will find out I am right. Christ paid the penalty for all our sins. There is no need therefore to work for our salvation in any way (including baptism). The same is true about purgatory. If Christ has paid the full penalty of our sins then why pay for them a second time in purgatory. You can repeat your mantra over and over again, but the truth is that Christ paid the penalty for all our sins, but the RCC doctrine does not agree with what the Scriptures say.

 

[qupte=lori4dogs]The Catholic Church in no way denies the sufficiency of Christ atonement on the cross.[/quote]

Then why the need for the "doctrine" of purgatory? Either the Christ's atonement was enough, or it wasn't. By continuing to teach purgatory, the message from the RCC is that the atonement wasn't enough.

 

The flaw in that solution is that IF the blood of Christ is accepted as forgiving sins fully - and IF the only remaining work to be done - is that which must be suffered by the saint - experienced by the saint - so that they can go to heaven "clean" -- then there CAN BE no such thing as an INDULGENCE!

The very fact that an indulgence provides that SOMEONE ELSE can pay that price FOR the saint in purgatory - leads to the conclusion regarding the "insufficiency" of forgiveness and substitutionary atonement that saint received from Christ through the Gospel - during their life.

What is even "more astounding" is the fact that the indulgence is based on the idea of "excess suffering" by the saints in LIFE - that INCLUDES the sufferings of Christ Himself. This means that even Christ's merits, (substitutionary sufferings in our behalf), were NOT accounted to the sinner during this life as they found forgiveness through the Gospel going directly to God asking for cleansing and forgiveness! "IF we CONFESS our sins He is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins AND to CLEANSE us from ALL unrighteousness" 1John 1:9


Rather that sinner has to go to purgatory and hope now that the RCC will GRANT an indulgence (subtitionary suffering for them paid through the excess sufferings of Christ) so they can go to heaven. In fact it is argued that living relatives are not truly loving toward their departed friends and relatives IF they do NOT seek indulgences for the departed.

THAT is the point where ALL Roman Catholics should have had cause to pause for reflection and consider just where that winding story had lead them.

Surely that is a wakeup call!

in Christ,

Bob

 

This is an interesting thought - "which is worse".

Let us say we have a Catholic Christian who is very opposed to abortion, gay agenda, evolution etc - but they "believe in purgatory".

Let us suppose that said Catholic is also opposed to the Catholic Church having murdered 50 million saints over the period of the dark ages and certainly would not approve of their choosing to resume such practices (for the sake of this question).

On the other hand we have Spong - actively promoting the destruction of Christianity itself through his promotion of evolution, gay agenda, abortion etc.

I would be hard pressed to argue that the Catholic was in a worse condition than Spong. In fact I would say that the Catholic is very likely a saved saint and the actions of Spong indicate that he his traveling rapidly on the downward slope to perdition.

----

Having said that - I know that there are in fact some Catholics that do promote evolution and gay rights and who choose to vote for pro-abortion legislators, who regard the historic "Extermination" of heretics as "infallible" etc -- so not saying that the scenario above fits all Catholics.

in Christ,

Bob

 

> I heard someone say once that what we think we know about heaven & hell 'is actually medieval culture and art.' Your thoughts?

CORRECT! Several references to "hell" actually refer to the town garbage dump.

 

Easy cop out.

 

Christ did pay the price for our sins - no question about that. But to ignore the importance of works is - well, unscriptural. Our very enternal destination hinges upon them...

Romans 2:5-7
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

Revelation 20:12 (King James Version)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 2:23 (King James Version)
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

And then there is Matthew 25:31-46 - the Sheep and the Goats and many - MANY more. However, I won't paste those lest I be accused of proof-texting unless, of course, you want me to. You have to ignore a great deal of scripture in order to take works out of salvation.

‡ Peace ‡

 

That is correct.

The Romans 2 texts you give show that both good AND bad outcomes for those who go to heaven vs those who go to hell - are determined by the actions of the person for "God is not partial" as the text says.

Thus heaven and hell are real - and the works done in the body are really judged.

2Cor 5:10 "For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body - whether they be good or evil".

However as we see in Romans 8:1-16, in order to engage in doing those good works - one must first BE a saint (See also Eph 2:8-10).

in Christ,

Bob

 

The question of purgatory is not whether or not Christ’s atonement is sufficient but, rather, how that atonement is applied in order to cleanse us from our sins – remember that nothing unclean can enter heaven.

Peace!

 

My Bible says that salvation is "not of works" (Eph.2:8,9), meaning that our eternal destination does not hinge upon works at all. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. If it is by works it is not salvation at all.

Good Scriptures. So what of them? Are you trying to make them mean something that they don't mean? I enjoy it when people post Scripture. Hey, make my day!

Aaaah, The Great White Throne Judgement. It is one place I will never be. I already know that I will never be there. I also know that my name is already in the lamb's book of life and that it will never be erased from it. I also know that it is there through no merit of my own, but by the grace of God that it is written there.

More Scripture. Keep posting. Nothing wrong with Scripture.

Not one scripture you have posted puts works in salvation. You have only demonstrated that you have a great misunderstanding of the Scriptures and that is all.

 

Salvation is not from works alone – it is from the grace of God. However, your judgment is most certainly related to your works, and other things as well - that is all over scripture and you have to be selective to ignore it.

Romans 2:5-7
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

It should be abundantly clear what these scriptures mean.

Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

It says “...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”

It doesn't say: "...and the dead were judged [excluding DHK] out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

I’m glad that you’re getting a free pass. Make a special deal with God did you?

Revelation 2:23
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Um hmmm...

Oh – I see. I have a misunderstanding of scripture and you do not. So, how is it that your interpretation is less fallible than mine or anyone felse's or that matter? I think it’s more likely that you are reading scripture selectively to buttress your particular flavor of theology.

Well, I don't know why I should as you won't read them anyway. None-the-less...

Matthew 7:21
Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES (action or WORK) the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth (WORK) to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 19:16-19
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments (WORK). He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure (WORK) unto the end, the same shall be saved.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good (WORKS), unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which WORKETH BY LOVE.

Phillipians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and LABOUR OF LOVE, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure (WORK), we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us.

James 1:21-27
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a DOER, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein (WORK), he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

Here, James is making a simple analogy; faith is made analogous to the body and works are made analogous to the spirit. As the body and spirit are both necessary for life (if we lose our spirit we lose our life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for life. Faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. Thus, just as in physical life one needs the body and the spirit, for eternal life one needs faith AND works.

continued...

 

continued...

Matthew 25:31-46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

1 Timothy 6:17-19
As for the rich in this world, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on uncertain riches but on God who richly furnishes us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good (WORKS), to be rich in good deeds (WORKS), liberal and generous, thus laying up for themselves a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed.

You just can't get around those works can you? There are other things required of us as well.

Peace!

 

There are many things that are required of us in order to be saved. (Please forgive any overlap from the previous posts)

Matthew 6:14-15
"14 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.”

We can't be saved if the Father does not forgive our sins, thus we must forgive (do something) in order to be saved.

Luke 6: 46-49
"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them. That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built.
But the one who listens and does not ACT is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed."

Hmmm... Looks like doing an ACT is a requirement to salvation also.

Matthew 19:16-21
"Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?"
He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
He asked him, "Which ones?" And Jesus replied, “‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
honor your father and your mother'; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
The young man said to him, "All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?"
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Wow - here are four more. According to Jesus we must keep the commandments, love our neighbor as ourselves, sell what we have giving it to the poor, and following Christ.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved."
Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required - believe AND be baptized.

James 1:22-24
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

and ---

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

James says this because we are justified, and ultimately saved, through both our faith and works, and not just faith alone

More works...

John 9:31 "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

fear God AND do his will...

Romans 2:5-7
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

We will be judged by our works…

2 Corinthians 5:8-10 (King James Version)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So, in summation of the above verses from Matthew, Mark, James, Luke, John, Romans, and 2 Corinthians the following are requirements of salvation:

1) forgive others
2) listen and act
3) keep the commandments
4) love your neighbor as yourself
5) sell what you have and give to the poor
6) follow Christ
7) believe (have faith)
8) do works
9) be Baptised
10) fear God AND do his will
11) persevere in good works
12) repent

Clearly this is not an exhaustive list, but I think you get my point...

Peace!

 

Mar 12:27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

You best pray you are not standing at the judgment of the dead my friend.

:jesus:

 

Wow! What religion do you represent Billy?

 

Do you believe in purgatory too?

 

He is not a Baptist as his profile states. That much has already been established.