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Bishop John Spong re-thinks Heaven & Hell

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by lori4dogs, Apr 26, 2010.

  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Thank you, but I want to know where BS learned what he believes.
     
  2. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    :tear:
    :tear: :saint:
     
  3. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    The wages of sin is death. The body will die because it is sinful flesh. It is dying now. When it goes to the grave, you will be set free from the fleshly temptations that cause you to sin. It's a good thing.:thumbs:
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Well its nice to know I'll be free of being a zombie. Thanks. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  5. BillySunday1935

    BillySunday1935 New Member

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    Let me make sure I have this correct. You believe that my interpretation of scripture is not based upon scripture and, as such, my interpretation is fallible. Then, conversely, your interpretation IS based upon scripture and is therefore INFALLIBLE. Good luck with that argument.

    And I refuted that in post #61.


    OK – let me clarify. The cleansing takes place before you can enter heaven, yet purgatory is part of heaven. If you are covered with mud and your family is assembled in the formal living room of your house for a family wedding, then you would need to take a shower to clean up before entering therein. Does that mean that you are not in your house when taking that shower? No – yet you are separated from those in attendance until you are cleaned up. Is it a mystery? Yes – but so is the Trinity, the hypostatic union, and a host of other things that are beyond our comprehension.

    Well, here is what I provided in post #59:

    And here was you thoughtful analysis and “response” to those scriptures (Heb 12:1, Rev. 21:27, 1 Cor. 3:13–15, Malachi 3:2)
    Oh really? Then how do you deal with the rest of that verse: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."


    Correct! There is no condemnation; there is, however, purification.


    Peace!
     
  6. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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  7. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    So basically BillySunday my analogy is correct? The light at the end of the tunnel is really a airtight purification chamber resembling a preasure chamber?
     
  8. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs New Member

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    This brings us back to the OP. What do we really know about heaven and hell??
    Do you think that the image or idea that most people have of heaven and hell is in error? Spong states this and then concludes that because of this we need to get rid of heaven and hell.

    According to scripture, Hell is a place where the fire is never extinguished and the worm won't die. We learn that it is a place of torment for Satan and any who follow him. We also know that it is a place for those not redeemed by the blood of Jesus. What do we know about heaven?
     
  9. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Heaven and hell are described in the bible. Images which people understand and can relate. Hell is described consistently at a "lake of fire" Jesus story about the rich man an Lazereth indicates that there is a "fire" aspect to hell since the guys ask for water just to sooth his tongue. Heaven has been described as a thone, a large city, a river, light comming directly from God, multitude of angles in flight and praise, saints praying and bowing, tears are wiped away, pain is no more, etc... I don't see anywhere where it talks about a purification chamber.
     
  10. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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  11. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs New Member

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    I think that Purgatory is a state a being, not a place. The Fathers of the Church taught there was a Purgatory: Tertullian , Origen , Cyprian, Ambrose, and a whole lot more.
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    You should read my post 110.
     
  13. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs New Member

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    "Its funny but I think putting both groups into a room to sort it out would be interesting."

    Have paramedics on hand!
     
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    The teaching:
    To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Every believer knows this. It is a foundational truth of Christianity. There is no intermediate state.

    Philippians 1:23-24 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

    The teaching:
    Paul had mixed feelings, but one thing he knew for sure--If he should depart from this earth he would be with Christ. There was no intermediate state. There was no place where he needed to be purified.

    If I died right now I would stand before a holy God: I being perfectly holy, purified, justified, sanctified, and able to enter into the presence of an Almighty God. Why? Because God made me holy, and purified me in the clothing of his righteousness when he justified me on the day that I trusted him as my Savior many, many years ago. On that day he forgave all my sins: past, present, and future, and gave me the gift of eternal life--a gift which can never be taken away. My name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will never be blotted out according to the promises of God.
     
  15. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    very nice.
     
  16. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs New Member

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    “So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:6-8).

    Is this what you are saying excludes Purgatory?
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The better translation is "confidence," as the KJV puts it. It also has the sense of boldness. I have complete confidence in the promises of the Word of God that what God has said is true.
    Herein is faith described by Paul using Abraham as an example:

    Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
    21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

    Abraham had faith. He was fully persuaded in the promises of God--that what God had promised, God would do. That is faith.
    Paul had the same faith--that at the point of death he would be with the Lord. There was no doubt in his mind. There was no purgatory. He would be with the Lord. That is what the Scripture teaches. No room for doubt.
     
  18. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs New Member

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    "On the day if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:15

    I'll stick with the Bible, Early Church's Fathers, and what the Church has consistently taught for 2,000+ years.
     
    #118 lori4dogs, Apr 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2010
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Please exegete the entire passage (1Cor.3:11-15). Show me one verse, even just vs. 15, just one verse, where it indicates that any person will suffer in fire. Is there one? No, not one.

    What does it say? "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss." It does not say: "If any man will burn." Why would you think that? Do you know what the Bible says to those who would add to or take away from the Word of God? Now there it tells them that they would suffer in fire (or all the plagues that are written in this book) which includes fire.

    Acts 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
    Acts 28:5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

    What happened?
    Paul suffered loss of the viper, yet he himself was saved.
    This is the exact same language as the judgment seat of Christ.
    As the viper was burned up in the fire so a person's works will be burned in fire, and the person will suffer loss. I am sure that Paul was happy to suffer the loss of a venomous snake. But those at the Judgment Seat of Christ will not be so happy to suffer the loss of eternal reward.

    There is no purgatory in this passage.
    There is no mention is anyone suffering from or in fire of any kind.

    The trouble, Lori, is that you don't stick with the Bible, and even the ECF lead you astray.
    Origen was considered a heretic even by the Roman Catholic's
    Irenaeus believed that Christ lived the ripe old age of 80.
    Tertullian changed his view on baptism more times than a chameleon changes its color.

    These were not consistent in their doctrine and much of it was heretical.
    If you believe them you don't believe your Bible. They opposed each other.

    BTW, there is no "The Church."
    Paul established "churches" in his three missionary journeys. There is no denomination in the Bible. That is something else for you to study out.
     
    #119 DHK, Apr 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2010
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In 1Cor 3 the gold and silver - vs -- the hay and stuble - refers to the teaching of the teachers -- using the metaphor of the builing-material of the builders.

    In 1Cor 3 - the work is burned -- the person is not burned.

    In 1Cor 3 - there is nothing said about "this only happens if you die" or "after you di".

    In 1Cor 3 - the text is clear "NO Petra can any man lay other than that which is laid - Jesus Christ". Jesus is the ONE Petra of the church in 1Cor 3.

    Thus this is a good example of a chapter that makes no mention at all of purgatory.

    But - more specifically - there is nothing in 1Cor 3 that would allow "Someone ELSES bad material - hay and stuble, to be burned in place of yours" -- so still - no indulgences.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
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