Blinding Their Minds to the Gospel

Contrary to what many Calvinist, (or those leaning hard towards Calvinism) churches cause their parishioners to believe, leaving the tenants of Calvinism is not paramount to leaving the truth. Leaving the platform of Augustinian original sin is not to deny the sinfulness of man or the fact that all are sinners and in need of the blood of Christ to save them from their sins. It is not leaving the truth for one to believe theirs sins will be judged by God and they have it in their power to leave the faith if they so choose.

I could expand this to may other false notions so many are feed, doing them psychological harm as well as possible spiritual harm to their souls.

 

If you do not disagree with that then you MUST deny that spiritual blindness is part and parcel with spirtiual death!

I am not saying that Adam was BLINDED to his sin. As you rightly say he did it with his eyes wide open. I am saying that spiritual blindess was the immediate result of his sin and inclusive of being spiritually dead. Hence, from the point of willful sin he BECAME by that sin spiritually blinded.

Although, Adam sinned willfully with eyes wide open, it was WILLFUL submission to Satan through Eve! In that willful act the immediate consequence was the FALL from a righteous sinless heart to a unrighteous sinful heart, and the effects of sin upon the heart robbed the:

"...... heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear...". - Deut. 29:4

The loss of eternal life is due to Sin's effect upon the heart to blind it:


".....being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:" - Eph. 4:18

 

[QUOTE]
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
[/QUOTE]
HP: It would appear to this reader that from the text, blindness does not come instantly upon the first sin, but rather over a period of time " Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." I would say that was not accomplished in an instant.

 

HP: It would appear to this reader that from the text, blindness does not come instantly upon the first sin, but rather over a period of time " Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." I would say that was not accomplished in an instant. [/QUOTE]

Spiritual blindess IS the condition of the unregenerated state of the natural man because they are without the Spirit of God:

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Where there is no Spirit of God there is no spiritual ability to "perceive" or see

"...... heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear...". - Deut. 29:4

 

Biblicist,

Do you agree with the scriptures that God chose the Jews? And that these

chosen Jews were the only people in a relationship with God? In these

chosen Jews, some believed in God and loved God. However, many Jews did

not. In the Old Testament, God says there were people who made sin

offerings, but there were people making sins offerings who were not really

even sorry for their sins! They just followed what the law said to do, but

without the sincerity of the heart. This God did not like. However, all Jews

had to do the works of the law. These were God’s chosen people! Yet

many worshiped God with their lips but their hearts were far from Him. There

were Jews who loved God and were sorry for their sins, but they could not

stop sinning, they were as a dead person, not able to change one single

thing for sin was also right there beside them. Then God sent the Savior.

The Jews who loved God and wanted to obey, these were the lost sheep of

Israel, these are the Jews God allowed to hear Jesus’ message and then go

through Jesus to continue with a relationship with God. However, there were

the Jews whose hearts were far from God, those Jews God hardened, so

that when they heard Jesus, they could not understand and be saved. God

offered salvation first to the Jews who loved Him. God hardened other Jews

and left them like all other people, like the Gentiles, in this world without

God. God left all to disobedience, so that He can have mercy on ALL. The

Jews who were hardened, God left them like all others. Not even through

the works they do are they considered God’s people anymore, for the works

for the earthly sanctuary save no one. We now all have access to salvation

by faith. Even the Jews who were hardened and cut off for unbelief, they

can be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief. Jews were not

cut off forever. All have a chance at salvation, if they believe.

 

FACT #1 - Those without the Spirit of God are spiritually blind - cannot perceive the things of the Spirit

1 Cor. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God....
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.FACT


FACT#2 - Those Spiritually dead are without the Spirit of God or else they would be spiritually alive

FACT#3 - Adam died spiritually when he sinned - thus without the Spirit of God - thus without ability to perceive, discern - thus blinded spiritually by his sin.

Who is the original source of sin? Eve or Satan? Who sinned first?

When Adam willfully sinned who was the only other being in the universe that willfully sinned? Eve or Satan?

Hence, whom did Adam MIMIC in his sin? Eve or Satan?

Whom did Adam SUBMIT to in willfully sinning? God or Satan?

What is the SPIRITUAL consequence of willful sin? - Spiritual death!

What is SPIRITUAL DEATH - it is SEPARATION from the Holy Spirit of God!

Can any human SEPARATED from the Spirit of God possess SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT?

1 Cor. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God....
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.FACT


What kind of heart do SPIRITUALLY DEAD people have?

Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

If you do not have spiritual eyes to see what kind of condition is that? SPIRITUAL BLINDESS?

How did Adam become Spiritually blind? By submitting to Satan because submitting to sin IS submitting to Satan!

 

Jerry, again the point of Biblicist is completely destroyed by the words of God to sinful Cain.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

So much for blindness on the part of sinful Cain.

 

We know how God becomes the Father of the saved - new birth! Tell me, how is Satan "your father the Devil"????

Are lost people born of Satan? There is the "seed of the woman" but is ther not also "the seed of the Serpent"??

From whence does he obtain his fatherhood over the lost? Isn't it through Adam willfully submitting to sin which had its source in Satan??? Hence, all men are born children of Satan, children of disobedience and are by NATURE the children of wrath?

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Jn. 6:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Note the cause and consequence order in John 6:44. They do not commit lusts in order to be "of your father the Devil" but because they are "of your father the Devil...the lusts of your Father YE WILL DO."

 

We are children of wrath, UNTIL WE DIE TO THE FLESH.

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

 

Then we are children of wrath until we receive our glorified bodies?

 

No, we are children of wrath until we believe and Jesus saves us.

Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Our old nature is to die and we are to be “buried with Him through baptism into death.” We are buried with the water, and raised out of the water, raised to “walk in newness of life” (live like Jesus).

Picture how baptism looks…the believer comes to make the pledge to God, to die to the sins of the world; so now standing in the water the believer falls back, as if dead; then, the believer goes under the water, buried; then, the believer rises up out of the water, raises up to live a new life.

Romans explain this perfectly.
Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Here are more scriptures for you to consider carefully...

Romans 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

 

Now that is much better.

Quite a different statement than the first.


God bless.

 

No, there is no difference in my statements. I think that you just might be confused. How about you try to elaborate on what you would like to say to me.

People who believe in Jesus and want to obey, they die to the flesh. People who do not believe in Jesus, they do not die to the flesh.

Do you not know that faith comes from hearing? What is the message that all can be saved by? The message is about how Christ died for sinners. Therefore, when a person hears the message, combines it with faith, they agree to die to the flesh and the sins of the world. You do not understand simple things of the Lord because you spend so much time in Calvin’s word.

 

Agreed.

Stop. How exactly does our old nature die?

Let me explain my response: while we are in this flesh, we remain a part of a fallen world. Until our bodies are redeemed...we will not be free from sin completely.

You can say our "old nature is to die," and I agree. We are to put on Christ, and not make provision for the flesh.

Our association with Christ is not spiritually tied to water baptism.

Baptism carries with it a connotation of association, such as we see here:

1 Corinthians 10

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Did Moses personally, or even with the help of others, stop to baptise both in the cloud and the sea?

See what I mean?

Agreed.

It would be better to say, "Look how baptism pictures..."lol.

But thanks.

The association is that which Christ accomplished He did in our behalf.

It is recognition to a fact. If we go on, we read:


Romans 6

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

We have a responsibility to put off sin in our mortal members, and not to make provision for the flesh, however, to think that we are "children of wrath" until we "die to the flesh," which implies sinlessness, as well as implies that one cannot obtain salvation until they cease from sin is something that I disagree with.

The commands given above would not have been given unless necessary, meaning, the potential for sin in the life of the believer is a reality.

Though we err and sin, the law has no more claim over us, meaning, it's penalty has already been paid in Christ, which is what "you died to the law through the body of Christ" means.

Only the death of Christ could satisfy the penalty which the law brought upon sinners...death.

Until we die or receive glorified bodies we still dwell in this world, and in our earthly bodies which have yet to be redeemed. Which is why Paul uses terms like "reckon."

Of course, he may have spent too much time in the south, too...lol.

Now read on:


Colossians 3

5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:


Notice two things:

1-believers are told to put to death their members (which does not speak of the biting and devouring we see on the forums...lol!), showing the need to do so despite the fact that they have received life in Christ;

2-he distinguishes between believers and the children of wrath, which is a term never used to describe the saved, but the lost.


Sinlessness is an impossibility for the believer. I believe that we can live holy before the Lord, and progressively reach a higher standard of holiness as we mature, but, I cannot deny that by both the command of God for the believer to put to death the deeds of the body (which implies the potential in believers) and the fact the body is as of yet unredeemed, I do not believe that any man can live in complete and total sinlessness.

Unless he is in a coma.

God bless.

 

Ah, good, another one that assumes.

For the record...I am not a Calvinist.

Nor am I one that builds upon his own doctrine by first tearing down those that they do not even know, much less know their doctrine.

It is true that we confront error when it is brought before us, but honestly, in the time I have spent debating, those who hold hatred in their heart for those of differing beliefs will be the last ones that will ever reach anyone that is in error.

It is like they say, "They will not care how much you know until they know how much you care."

Your turn.

 

You said: Stop. How exactly does our old nature die?

My reply: We die to our old nature by a conscious agreement to do so.

You said: Let me explain my response: while we are in this flesh, we remain a part of a fallen world. Until our bodies are redeemed...we will not be free from sin completely.

My reply: Have you ever given up ANY sin for Jesus, any? Do you still live the same way as before you came to Christ? There is nothing wrong with speaking publically about sins we do and have repented of, so please be open to discussing it.

You said: You can say our "old nature is to die," and I agree. We are to put on Christ, and not make provision for the flesh.

My reply: So then why are you going on and debating me?

You said: Our association with Christ is not spiritually tied to water baptism.

My reply: Water baptism is when we make the outward pledge to God, to die to the ways of this world.

You said: Baptism carries with it a connotation of association, such as we see here:
1 Corinthians 10
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Did Moses personally, or even with the help of others, stop to baptise both in the cloud and the sea?
See what I mean?

My reply: I know what you mean. However, we are talking about water baptism for those wanting to obey God through Jesus Christ.

You said: It would be better to say, "Look how baptism pictures..."lol.
But thanks.

My reply: You are welcome. Although, I meant what I said, picture how baptism looks.

You said: We have a responsibility to put off sin in our mortal members, and not to make provision for the flesh, however, to think that we are "children of wrath" until we "die to the flesh," which implies sinlessness, as well as implies that one cannot obtain salvation until they cease from sin is something that I disagree with.

My reply: I only quote and speak of the scriptures. You just admitted to disagreeing with the Word of God.

You said: Though we err and sin, the law has no more claim over us, meaning, it's penalty has already been paid in Christ, which is what "you died to the law through the body of Christ" means.

My reply: You seem to be missing some truths about the law. You also seem to be missing some truth about what Jesus does for us. Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. Did you see that? SIN, SEIZING THE OPPORTUNITY AFFORDED BY THE COMMANDMENT, PRODUCED IN ME EVERY KIND OF COVETING.

You said: Until we die or receive glorified bodies we still dwell in this world, and in our earthly bodies which have yet to be redeemed. Which is why Paul uses terms like "reckon."

My reply: You have a defeatist attitude about sin, this does make me wonder about your life since you have been dead and living by the Spirit.

You said: Notice two things:
1-believers are told to put to death their members (which does not speak of the biting and devouring we see on the forums...lol!), showing the need to do so despite the fact that they have received life in Christ;

My reply: Try a different translation for this scripture. The scriptures do NOT tell us to put to death anyone.

You said: 2-he distinguishes between believers and the children of wrath, which is a term never used to describe the saved, but the lost.

My reply: 5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.b 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
Did you see that? You USED to walk in these ways.

You said: Sinlessness is an impossibility for the believer. I believe that we can live holy before the Lord, and progressively reach a higher standard of holiness as we mature, but, I cannot deny that by both the command of God for the believer to put to death the deeds of the body (which implies the potential in believers) and the fact the body is as of yet unredeemed, I do not believe that any man can live in complete and total sinlessness.
Unless he is in a coma.

My reply: 1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

You said: Ah, good, another one that assumes. For the record...I am not a Calvinist. Nor am I one that builds upon his own doctrine by first tearing down those that they do not even know, much less know their doctrine.

My reply: It is not merely assuming. You defend Calvinism. You speak like Calvinists. So do not be surprised when someone sees the Calvinist spirit in you.

You said: It is true that we confront error when it is brought before us, but honestly, in the time I have spent debating, those who hold hatred in their heart for those of differing beliefs will be the last ones that will ever reach anyone that is in error.

My reply: I hate false religion and false doctrine, doctrine that goes against the Word of God. For you falsely accuse me of hating people is to go against the Word of God. You show me what is in your heart when you falsely accuse me, you will not nullify the truth, the word of God that I speak, by falsely accusing me, and you will not make me stop by your hateful words. Do you think that this tactic has not been tried on me before? I am a long time away from the baby Christian I used to be, one who would sit and cry after those in falseness would say as a defense that I was hateful.

You said: It is like they say, "They will not care how much you know until they know how much you care."

My reply: I would not be wasting my whole morning and afternoon on people like you if I did not care. I just want to help you to know Him better. For that, you call me hateful. The Lord blesses me for trying, and I hope that I am at least strengthening others who already know the truth.