Bloodless Bibles?

NaasPreacher (C4K) · Feb 12, 2005

Originally posted by Glory2God:
Sin occurs 447 times and the only thing that covers sin is blood, and blood occurs the exact number of times 447 to cover all sin.
Click to expand...

Good point - that is only in the 1769 edition though

KJV1611 has

sinne - 429 times
blood - 451 times

This would support the cause of those who say that he 1769 Oxford is the perfect translation.

The numbers match up in the NT only.

NaasPreacher (C4K) · Feb 12, 2005

Originally posted by AVBunyan:
Are we talking about these types of verses?

(NIV) Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
(KJV) Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Which one is right?

God bless
Click to expand...

Hmm, are you implying that the NIV is a bloodless Bible?

AVBunyan · Feb 12, 2005

C4K asks:
"Hmm, are you implying that the NIV is a bloodless Bible?"

No - I just asked a question, wasn't exactly sure what you folks were looking for. Of course, it appears all "bibles" have the blood in them somehwere - there are no "bloodless" bibles around I would imagine. But I was showing that some seem to "pick" at the blood.

Again, which one is right - the NIV or the KJV?

God bless

Ed Edwards · Feb 12, 2005

Originally posted by Glory2God:
Sin occurs 447 times and the only thing that covers sin is blood, and blood occurs the exact number of times 447 to cover all sin.
Click to expand...

Ed Edwards · Feb 12, 2005

Originally posted by Glory2God:
Sin occurs 447 times and the only thing that covers sin is blood, and blood occurs the exact number of times 447 to cover all sin.
Click to expand...

can you mention details so
we can figure out what you are saying.
Also would like to check it out myself.

-Ed of Berea

I am finding 447 'blood' in the e-sword KJV+
448 'sin' in the e-sword KJV+srong's numbers

Ed Edwards · Feb 12, 2005

I am finding 375 'blood' in crosswalk.com KJV1769
and 389 'sin' in crosswalk.com KJV1769.

Apples & oranges?

Phillip · Feb 12, 2005

That is quite a difference, strange isn't it Ed?

Let me see if I get your numbers on my E-sword.

447 'blood' on e-sword KJV+ CONFIRMED

448 'sin' in e-sword KJV+ (without strongs) CONFIRMED

Now, what do you think is the crosswalk difference?

HankD · Feb 12, 2005

(NIV) Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
(KJV) Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Click to expand...

Which one is right? The KJV.

NASB Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

KJV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Which one is right? The NASB.

Shall we go one, perhaps to Acts 12:4 (Easter vs Passover)?

HankD

Phillip · Feb 12, 2005

ASV E-sword 'blood' 443

Good post, HankD

David J · Feb 12, 2005

Good point Hank!

Yet another reason why the AV1611 translators said that it is good to have a variety of translations.

I’m sure that your examples will be ignored.

rsr · Feb 12, 2005

AV Bunyan said:

"Originally posted by AVBunyan:
Are we talking about these types of verses?"

There are two issues; in Col. 1:14, the USB text omits the phrase, so it is omitted in most modern translations.

The translational methodology of the GNB/TEV, however, purposely changed "blood" to "death" without regard to the underlying text. It thus was a translational, not a textual, choice.

natters · Feb 12, 2005

Originally posted by AVBunyan:
Again, which one is right - the NIV or the KJV?
Click to expand...

Both. Just as Acts 4:25 is right in both versions even though the KJV "picks at" the Holy Spirit.

Craigbythesea · Feb 12, 2005

Here is some interesting information about Good News for Modern man,

The New Testament of the Good News Bible was translated by Dr. Robert G. Bratcher in consultation with a committee appointed by the American Bible Society. Bratcher had been on the staff of the American Bible Society since 1957, and he did his translation according to principles of translation set forth by Eugene Nida, who since 1946 had been the Executive Secretary of the ABS Translations Department. Nida called his theory of translation Dynamic Equivalence.

In addition to being a Dynamic Equivalence version, the Good News Bible is also what some translation theorists call a "Common Language" version. "Common Language" is defined as the language which is "common to the usage of both educated and uneducated" in any given language, or, to put it more bluntly, it is the level of language used by uneducated people and children. Bratcher says that the version was originally conceived as one which would be suitable for people who speak English as a second language. But the main "market niche" of the Good News Bible was from the beginning the mainline Protestant churches in America and Great Britain, where copies were bought by the box for use in Sunday-school classes. The version was promoted as one which was suitable for children.

Others for whom the version was intended to be useful were the field translators employed by the American Bible Society in Asia and Africa, most of whom lacked proficiency in the original languages and relied upon English versions in their work. Because the Bible versions being done by these field translators were actually based upon English versions, the Good News Bible was to serve as a new resource for their use.
The Old Testament was translated on the same principles by a committee comprised of Bratcher (chairman), Roger A. Bullard, Keith R. Crim, Herbert G. Grether, Barclay M. Newman, Heber F. Peacock, and John A. Thompson. The work began in 1967, and went through an extensive scholarly review process, occupying nine years.
Rejection of the Version by Evangelicals

The GNB was not well received by conservative churches, for a variety of reasons. Some dubbed it the "bloodless bible" because Bratcher had avoided using the phrase "blood of Christ" in the New Testament. Instead of the literal "blood of Christ" he used such explanatory paraphrases as "sacrificial death of Christ." This was done according to his principles of translation, which favored explanatory renderings, but he did not reckon with the importance of the phrase "blood of Christ" in conservative preaching.

The translation of the Immanuel prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 ("a young woman who is pregnant will have a son") seems to show that the editors were not much concerned about acceptance of the version in conservative churches. After the publication of the Revised Standard Version's Old Testament in 1952, in which this verse was first translated with "young woman" instead of "virgin," this had become a litmus test for conservatives in their evaluation of Bible versions, and Bratcher and his committee must have known this. Moreover, it is evident from Bratcher's statements in the years following the publication of the Old Testament that he personally had nothing but contempt for conservatives and their teachings.

Although the ABS spent large sums in promoting the version, offering copies for a mere 25 cents for the first year, Bratcher actually went out of his way to antagonize the very people who were most interested in reading, teaching and distributing the Bible. At a Dallas conference on the theme "Biblical Authority for the Church Today" sponsored by the Southern Baptist Convention in March 1981 he openly lambasted conservative evangelicals, calling them ignorant and dishonest, and scoffed at their contention that the words of the Bible were inspired and authoritative:

"Only willful ignorance or intellectual dishonesty can account for the claim that the Bible is inerrant and infallible. To qualify this absurd claim by adding 'with respect to the autographs' is a bit of sophistry, a specious attempt to justify a patent error ... No thruth-loving, God-respecting, Christ-honoring believer should be guilty of such heresy. To invest the Bible with the qualities of inerrancy and infallibility is to idolatrize it, to transform it into a false God ... No one seriously claims that all the words of the Bible are the very words of God. If someone does so it is only because that person is not willing thoroughly to explore its implications ... Even words spoken by Jesus in Aramaic in the thirties of the first century and preserved in writing in Greek 35 to 50 years later do not necessarily wield compelling or authentic authority over us today. The locus of scriptural authority is not the words themselves. It is Jesus Christ as THE Word of God who is the authority for us to be and to do."

These exasperating remarks moved many conservatives to stop giving to the American Bible Society, and this quickly led to a financial crisis for the organization. In June 1981 the ABS requested Bratcher's resignation. He went on to a position as "Translation Consultant" for the United Bible Societies, the international organization of which the ABS is a member.

In 1992 the ABS issued a revision of the Good News Bible with gender neutral language, and in 1995 it published the Contemporary English Version, a very similar version which is apparently meant to replace the Good News Bible.
Click to expand...

(Source: A Bible Research article that may be read in its entirety, including the documentation, at http://www.bible-researcher.com/tev.html)

AVBunyan · Feb 12, 2005

Originally posted by natters:
Both. Just as Acts 4:25 is right in both versions even though the KJV "picks at" the Holy Spiri.
Click to expand...

I feel the above is a poor example - forgiveness and redemption without the blood is poor doctrine. And since there are teachings today that believe the blood is not important makes it even more important to include the blood for doctrinal sake.

May God bless

natters · Feb 12, 2005

Originally posted by AVBunyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by natters:
Both. Just as Acts 4:25 is right in both versions even though the KJV "picks at" the Holy Spiri.
Click to expand...

I feel the above is a poor example
</font>[/QUOTE]Why? Inspiration of scripture by the Holy Spirit isn't important doctrine?

forgiveness and redemption without the blood is poor doctrine.
Click to expand...

So you have a problem with the Rom 3:24, 1 Cor 1:30, Titus 2:14 etc., in the KJV that mention redemption without mentioning blood?

NaasPreacher (C4K) · Feb 13, 2005

Originally posted by AVBunyan:
Are we talking about these types of verses?

(NIV) Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
(KJV) Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Which one is right?

God bless
Click to expand...

No problem here, the KJV is correct.

Ed Edwards · Feb 13, 2005

Which one of these is correct?

1. - Col 1:13 (KJV1611):
Who hath deliuered vs from the power
of darkenesse, and hath translated vs into
the kingdome of his deare Sonne,

2. - Col 1:13 (KJV1611alt):
Who hath deliuered vs from the power
of darkenesse, and hath translated vs into
the kingdome of the Sonne of his love,

The second reading is denoted in all REAL KJVs
by a margin note.

Here is what Strong's says:

agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence;
specifically (plural) a love feast:
- (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.

Note this is the same word used in 1 Cor. chapter 13
and translated in the KJV as "charity".

BTW, because of "charity" in 1 Corinthians
chapter 13, some say: "The KJV is a loveless
Bible"

Glory2God · Feb 15, 2005

I can't believe none of you "scolars" didn't even mention "land of Sin" causing the discrepency in the blood, sin count. My bible KJV(could care less about which edition)has just enough blood to cover every sin.

In the King James Bible the word blood occurs 447 times.

In the King James Bible the word sin occurs 447 times.

Do you really think that is a coincidence?

Jesus' shed blood at Calvary was sufficient to wash away all the sins of the whole world.

Revelation 1:5 (KJV) ...Jesus Christ...loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

In the NIV, the word sin occurs 473 times.

In the NIV, the word blood occurs 406 times.

In the NIV, there is more sin and less blood!

Do you really think that is a coincidence?

In the King James Bible the word grace occurs 170 times.

In the NIV the word grace occurs 131 times.

In the NIV, there is more sin and less grace!

Do you really think that is a coincidence?

In the King James Bible the word rebel occurs 14 times in 13 verses.

In the NIV the word rebel occurs 18 times.

(13--the # of rebellion) In the NIV, there is more rebellion and less grace!

Do you really think that is a coincidence?

In the King James Bible the word Satan occurs 55 times.

In the NIV the word Satan occurs 53 times.

The NIV takes out the name Satan two times.

What are they trying to cover up?

There are those who say 5 is the number of grace.

But, the number 5 is the number of DEATH!

Proof?

Heb 2:9 Jesus…for the suffering of death…by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

By his GRACE, Jesus suffered DEATH for every man!

Jesus suffered DEATH to show his GRACE to us all.

Jesus' blood is shed through his death!

The speed limit is 55 Which means, if you go over 55 you die.

I read you 5 x 5

The distress signal is May Day! May is the 5th ( fifth) month!

(Death has 5 letters)

(Grace has 5 letters)

(blood has 5 letters)

(Jesus has 5 letters)

(saved has 5 letters)

(faith has 5 letters)

(fifth has 5 letters)

(works has 5 letters)

(boast has 5 letters)

(Satan has 5 letters)

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith

Ephesians 2:9 (KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Christ Jesus...(Romans 3:25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through

faith in his blood!

Do you really think that is a coincidence?

Is God trying to tell us something in his word, the King James Bible?

Ed Edwards · Feb 15, 2005

The previous post contains unethecial quote.
This site is quoted:

http://www.robertbreaker.com/honduras/pages/NIVvsKJV.htm

But without attribution.

BTW, the owner of the site graduate high school
in 1961, just like me

Glory2God: "In the King James Bible the word blood occurs 447 times.
In the King James Bible the word sin occurs 447 times.
Do you really think that is a coincidence?"

Yes, it is a coincidence. But it is a coincidence
probably arranged by a human by deceit to advance
human causes. (BTW, had one bothered to read
previous posts in this topic, one would find it
probably isn't even true that both words appear
447 times.)

Askjo · Feb 15, 2005

Originally posted by AVBunyan:
Are we talking about these types of verses?

(NIV) Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
(KJV) Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Which one is right?

God bless
Click to expand...

The KJV!

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