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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jan 14, 2010.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I am not denying the doctrine of Original Sin or the foolishness of a child's unsaved heart.

    We are discussing the humility of a child verses the hardened pride of an adult. Any objective person, without a dog in this hunt, could see the clear distinction between the attitude of an average child and a hardened sinful adult when confronted with the gospel message. One has GROWN calloused, while the other has not. Experience and scripture back this up.
     
    #61 Skandelon, Apr 9, 2011
  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Children aren't humble. Just go to Wal-Mart and observe the ones who aren't being corrected.
     
    #62 Aaron, Apr 9, 2011
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Take it up with Jesus who said, "anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven." If you think that just means "station in life" then Jesus would just be saying, you must take a lower station in life to enter my kingdom. But that is not what he is saying. He is saying you must not be stubborn and hardened, but be trusting and willing to follow without question as a child would. The clear difference is in one who has a soft and teachable/humble heart, and one who has become "set in his ways" like an "old dog that can't learn a new trick" (both colloquialisms that have developed because the truth of this point). If you can't see that then it may just be for the very reason I've just mentioned. You are "set in your ways," and you have become hardened into calvinism so much so that you can't see the obvious.
     
    #63 Skandelon, Apr 9, 2011
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    There you go again with your Arminian over-estimation of the human heart. And I did take it up with Jesus. He said, "Ye must be born again." No matter how you slice it, that comes up state of being.
     
    #64 Aaron, Apr 10, 2011
  5. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Your avatar is appropriate for a Calvinist. Both John Calvin and J. Frank Norris were involved in the killing of two unarmed men.
     
    #65 Robert Snow, Apr 10, 2011
  6. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Only according to the twisted logic of a Calvinist. Since God commands it, we must be able to do it. I know this doesn't fit your flawed theological view, but it is what the bible teaches nonetheless.
     
    #66 Robert Snow, Apr 10, 2011
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. —Jesus.

    Is it within your power to be perfect?
     
    #67 Aaron, Apr 10, 2011
  8. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Do Noncalvinists even read the Bible?
     
    #68 Aaron, Apr 10, 2011
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Deuteronomy 30:
    11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

    1 Corinthians 10:
    11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation[The Greek for temptation and tempted can also mean testing and tested.] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[The Greek for temptation and tempted can also mean testing and tested.] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[The Greek for temptation and tempted can also mean testing and tested.] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. 14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.
     
    #69 psalms109:31, Apr 10, 2011
  10. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Perfect

    I just want you to know my relationship with God through Jesus Christ is the utmost importance.

    Hebrews 7:
    18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
     
    #70 psalms109:31, Apr 10, 2011
  11. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Strong's definition for "perfect (G5046):
    Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
    Part of Speech: Adjective
    Transliteration: teleios
    Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
    Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
    Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

    Don't Calvinists even understand the bible?
     
    #71 Robert Snow, Apr 10, 2011
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes, through faith in the one who is perfect we can also be clothed in his righteousness. That is the POINT!

    We can't fulfill the law ---> Solution: Jesus fulfilled it for those who believe
    We were enemies ---> Solution: A message appealing for our reconciliation
    We were lost and unable to save ourselves ---> Solution: God sent Christ, the HS, the gospel, the church to seek and to save the lost.

    Calvinism presumes that we can't respond to a message sent for the purpose of reconciling enemies because we are enemies. Calvinism presumes because we can't fulfill the law that we can't believe in the one who fulfills it for us. Calvinism presumes that because we are lost and can't save ourselves that we also can't respond in faith to God solutions. That is biblically unfounded.
     
    #72 Skandelon, Apr 10, 2011
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Or is it the Calvinist's underestimation of the power of the gospel?
     
    #73 Skandelon, Apr 10, 2011
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    would Edwards, would Whitefield, would Spurgeon? Why ask ridiculous questions? Or is this exercise just vain one up's-manship?
     
    #74 Earth Wind and Fire, Apr 10, 2011
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Scandalon, do you seriously believe your above statements about Calvinist theology? Really?!?
     
    #75 Earth Wind and Fire, Apr 10, 2011
  16. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    So, answer my question. Is it within your power to be perfectly Christlike?
     
    #76 Aaron, Apr 10, 2011
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Follow along. He claimed that we over estimate the heart of man when in reality we just believe that God's chosen means to bring life/salvation/freedom really is the power of God unto salvation. To presume that the gospel is powerless for the majority of humanity (those who are not first regenerated) is to "underestimate" it's power.

    Well, lets look at the merit of each statement and you tell me what is not a proper reflection of Calvinism:

    1. Calvinism presumes that we can't respond to a message sent for the purpose of reconciling enemies because we are enemies: The gospel is the appeal for the enemies of God to be reconciled to God, but Calvinists teach that this message can't be received because we are born enemies of God and so "dead" that even this life giving message can't have any positive effect unless first regenerated.

    2. Calvinism presumes because we can't fulfill the law that we can't believe in the one who fulfills it for us. Every time we mention that God would not command and punish us for sometime he would grant us the ability to do Calvinists point to the Law as an example of something we can't accomplish as proof that God does demand that which we can't do, but they do so to prove that we also can't believe in the one who fulfilled the law for us. Proof we can't fulfill the law on our own is not proof we can't place our faith in the one who fulfilled it for us.

    3. Calvinism presumes that because we are lost and can't save ourselves that we also can't respond in faith to God solutions. How many times have Calvinists quotes passages such as Romans 3:10 as if it is contradicting Arminianism? Proof that we can't save ourselves is not proof that we can't respond to God's appeal for us to be saved. Proof that we don't seek God is not proof that we can't respond to a God actively pursuing us through the gospel, the Holy Spirit, and his Church.

    Now, which one of these statements is misrepresentative of your views and why?
     
    #77 Skandelon, Apr 10, 2011
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    So your answer is no. It is not within one's power to be perfect. Christ's perfection must be imputed.

    So, RS, how do you like being undone by your own ally?:laugh:
     
    #78 Aaron, Apr 10, 2011
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    True.

    And that rebuts my assertion how?

    The Gospel isn't powerless. The human heart is powerless.

    You neither know the law nor the prophets. You just said we cannot fulfill the law, and the first commandment is, Thou shalt have no other gods beside me. Unless one can fulfill that commandment, he cannot have faith.

    They all are. We presume nothing. Each of our tenets are clearly stated in the Scriptures.
     
    #79 Aaron, Apr 10, 2011
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    There's no such thing. It is definitely the Noncalvinist's over-estimation of the human heart. Idolatry, really.
     
    #80 Aaron, Apr 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2011
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