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Bob Jones University Admits Racist Past; Repents

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by swaimj, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Yes, I read your posts. I copied the questions you asked me into my posts and I answered them.
     
  2. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Pipedude, none of us have come to a complete understanding of the truth and none of us are all that God says we should be. We are all often blinded by cultural influences. That is why each generation must study the scripture, wrestle with its meaning, and seek to apply it to life. Future generations may trash you and me for things that we do that are wrong but whose error has never occured to us. If they come to their conclusions because they find it in scripture, then their criticism of us will be completely justified. If they come the their conclusion and then refuse to change as they are convinced they should out of loyalty to us, then their condemnation is worse than ours.

    It is not the world that has concluded that fundamentalists in the south were wrong about race. It is godly men who are students of the Word--many of them students from BJU who have concluded that the past policies were wrong. If the new position of BJU is rooted in scripture then nothing has been lost by the change and much has been gained.
     
  3. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    In all fairness to Bob Jones, the founder, it is not that many years ago that we were taught in seminary and Bible College that segregation and slavery was taught in the bIble. It was based on the three sons of Noah and the fact that Ham was the father of the Black races and they were to be slaves for life.

    The rulers in Soth Africa held this same teaching, and we know better their outcome.

    The Southern Baptist schools and preachers didn't change this interpretation until years after the Civil Rights marches. I should imagine one might still find shadows of this teaching still in some circles.

    I like Bob Jones University. I don't like some of their theology, but I like the calibre of men and women who have graduated from that school, and that speaks volumes despite their practices.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  4. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Children of the culture

    Well said. However, it applies as well to those who sit in judgment of Dr. Bob, Sr. and BJU--they too are children of their own political correct culture, which affects and colors their interpretation of Scripture. This has been one of my points. We must consider the BJU racial policies in light of their contextualization, not our present political correctness. This is what the detractors seem to miss. What do you think?
     
  5. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Answers to questions in my reply?

    I fail to find any response to the questions in the immediate preceding post except whether you read my posts. What about the other questions of substance?
     
  6. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Now, how do you know?

    Well, your experience was greatly different from my growing up in SC if you can say the society-culture was racist unless you are using a different definition of racism. Yes, I knew racists too (e.g. klansmen, neo-Nazis, skin heads, etc.) but my upbringing was one of respect and Christian charity.
    Yes, but Dr. Bob Jones, Sr. believed his position to be Biblical too. Are you old enough to remember the Schofield dispensationalism that dominated until well into the middle of the twentieth century? It had strong racial elements (i.e. the lines of Seth and Cain) that made plausible the benign segregation of Southern Christians. When and how did the change in viewpoints take place?
    No, the 2nd commandment does not say this. It does not address racism at all but you are making an inference from the command. Now, support your inference. An inference, although based on Scripture, is not the same as Scripture itself. Your inference may be contested and it may be wrong because it depends on fallible and fallen human reasoning. How do you know, other than from your own deduction, that racism was included in the command? After all, we do routinely deny privilege based on things (e.g. money, membership, etc.) as frivolous and abritrary as skin color. Using your implied argument, you should let a poor man join your country club even if he can't pay the dues. Or, you shouldn't send your kids to a private school if your neighbor can't afford it. Also, how do you address the basic liberty of freedom of association? Does love demand that I guarantee to every man all the benefits (e.g. education, material prosperity, etc.) that I enjoy.

    Actually, my argument is very superficial here because there is neither time (months, at best) and space (a big book) to explore all the ramifications and Biblical teaching, or lack thereof, as relates to racism. There's too much brush to be cut away from the present political correctness before dealing with the root of the problem. My whole argument is that a blanket condemnation of Dr. Bob, Sr., Dr. Bob, Jr., or BJU in general for racism is an unfair and prejudiced oversimplification lacking accuracy, compassion, insight, perception, understanding, balance, etc. Because BJ-bashing is politically correct, you'll gain supporters, but it really doesn't mean a thing except that political correctness is more biased, unreasoning, tyrannical, etc. than the supposed evil it supplants.
    Of course, Kennedy sounds profound when one has already bought the farm. One has to somehow justify the payments. Also, he cannot eat there if he doesn't have the money, or he's not wearing a coat and tie, or he doesn't own membership in the club, ad nasseum. Kids discriminate on the playground when the most popular are chosen first, or the cutest girl is selected "Little Miss Kudzu Queen." Teens judge one another on the brand of sneakers or jeans. Adults do it more slyly. So, why is racism, a social construct, considered the original sin when the wickedness is universally prevalent in individual hearts?
     
    #66 paidagogos, Nov 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2008
  7. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Yes, let's see, what were the biblical arguments for racism? One was the curse of Cain. The curse of Cain, it was said, was a mark that was put on him. What was the mark? He became a black man, so black men are cursed. The next possible theory was the curse on Canaan by Noah. "A servant of servants he shall be". So his descendants became the black race. They are destined to be slaves so when white southerners made black people slaves they were doing God's will by fulfilling the curse that is upon them. Yes, seriously, this is what I heard taught in church in the south when I was growing up. It provided a justification for any and all ill treatment of black people. It is high time that such unbiblical interpretations were rejected. Again, I am glad BJU has rejected it.
     
  8. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    In 1979 in a rural church in Alabama the visiting pastor stood in the pulpit and said, "Let me tell you where the "ni**ers" came from" and proceeded to tell us about Noah's curse. And, being a 14 year old I bought it hook line and sinker. Of course, I now see it as a bunch of bunk but it's sad that a pastor would preach such a lie and people in the pew not call him on it.
     
  9. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    You seem to imply that either or both of those two interpretations were taught, stated, believed, and/or argued for at BJU. Were they?
     
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    A culture just doesn't fall from the sky.
     
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Mr.Paidagogos:When we call something sin which is indeed sin --why should the ones calling it by name be the bad guys?Why try to rationalize away sin with excuses such as "contextualization"?Why does identifying something as actually sinful make you say that it's just "political correctness" on the part of the "detractors"?!
     
  12. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    I don't think so

    I think you are wrong here. Can you document either of these teachings from BJU, although others such as Shelton Jones, a Cherokee Indian preacher, may have taught it. What Dr. Bob, Sr. used as his Biblical text was Acts 17:26. From this, he derived a principle of racial separation in benign sense. If you know differently, please correct me but I think you have made a wrong assumption.
     
  13. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Does the Bible call racism sin?

    My dear Sir, you are begging the question. If I attempt to answer your questions, then I am admitting that I am defending sin. I am not. It's rather like the question: "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"
    1. You have not defined racism from the Scriptures. So, we don't know what racism is from a Biblical perspective.
    2. You have not established that the Bible calls racism sin. Some good Christians believe that women wearing pants is sin.
    3. You have not proven that BJU has committed racism as defined and condemned by Scripture.
    Would you care to rationally try backing up your criticism of my arguments?
     
  14. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Ignorance is horrible thing

    Perhaps the poor man didn't know any better himself.
     
  15. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    Surely you aren't rationalizing such behavior away...
     
  16. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    My statement was in response to this quote from one of you guys:
    This quote was not speaking specifically of Bob Jones' beliefs but of the commonly held interpretations in southern culture. That is what I was commenting on.
     
  17. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Paidagogos, do you agree with Bob Jones' Sr. interpretaion of this passage?
     
  18. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Racism is included in the command because one of the contexts in which the command is repeated is the story of the good Samaritan.

    People who run country clubs descriminate on the basis of how much money people have. For Christians, it is wrong to judge others on the basis of wealth.

    The questions for BJU or any other school is this: If you are a Christian institution and you are offering a Christian education, what is the point of denying it to some people, even though they are Christians, because of the color of their skin.

    I really hate to be discussing this at this point, particularly in the context of BJU. THEY have acknowledged their wrong and have repented. I started this thread to praise them for that move. Some of the board seem to feel that they were NOT wrong and should not have repented. I think the burden is on you now to show from the scripture how and why it is a godly spiritual thing to do when you practice racial descrimination.
     
  19. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Judging others with mercy..........................

    Is that what I said? Please take my words at face value without reading into them any inferences. If I think it, then I am articulate enough to say it well.


    Would you agree that one who leads others astray through ignorance is to be judged less harshly than those who intentionally and willfully lead others awry? Perhaps this poor man is to be pitied rather than held up for scorn. I once asked an attorney at the Southern Poverty Law Center how he could so easily condemn the redneck klansman, who grew up in poverty, prejudice and ignorance, for his racism. He admitted that it was an issue with which they had wrestled long and hard. He agreed that he didn’t have a good answer. Do you?

    My friend, there is a big difference between rationalizing away an issue and giving it fair and proper balance. I hope that you can see the difference.
     
  20. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Not limited to Southern culture................

    Swaimj, I think you will find the Schofield Dispensationalist interpretations of the lines of Seth and Cain spread throughout the older evangelical circles nationwide, not just Southern culture. It was out of this older circle of evangelicals that Drs. Bob, Jr. & Sr. came. They were part of the organizing of the NAE before they withdrew to Fundamentalist ranks. You must realize this was the cultural mileu of the first half of the twentieth century. Schofield's interpretations were revered. He did say a lot of good things and provided much insight but some things may have gone too far.
     
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