Featured Books, Context, and Value

I was not asking about this question being asked in this way. The poll I was suggesting was do the readers think you went back and forth on this issue for the last couple of weeks, was you position clear, od was your position seemingly on both sides of the fence?

If an old writer wrote on regeneration, or prayer, A commentary on Hebrews, would it not be just as relevant and useful today as it was then? that was more the issue.

 

Would not theology, doctrines, and practices and principles gleaned form the Bible by gifted teachers be applicable, regardless of the date?

 

Yes, but the context in which you are using the argument for certain theologians doesn't apply to your theory/understanding/concept. (see what I did there?)

 

Their application and principles from the scriptures are timeless though, as would be any insight into the meaning of the texts!

 

What would be applications and principles frpm sctiptures that would not be for all time then?

 

Thanks for the clarification

 

yes it is...i went back and looked
You denied things said in 4 earlier posts, you have been revising your statements
Extreme Posts Against Those who teach the Grace of God

Extreme Posts Against Those who teach the Grace of God.pt2

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JonC,



Here are the ones listed here, tell me if you own them as your quotes, or if you think I manufactured them?

1]JonC had objected
For example, many reject John Owen's "biblical" reason for baptizing people infants.
We would do better to turn to God rather than Owen.

2]JONC asked the question...why would we listen to a person who believes in infant baptism?

3]The writings of teachers from the past, like John Owen are not relevant today'

4]John Owen can be read as a literary device

5]reading teachers from the past ,does not give us godly wisdom
What we gain from studying those books is not godly wisdom. Godly wisdom comes from studying Scripture, praying, and becoming more like Christ.

6]A Christian who chooses to disciple himself on books as his teachers is a lost sheep, forsaking the flock and his role in the flock.

When we rely on books as our teacher we are essentially teaching ourselves.

7]Take John Owen, for example. A Baptist will not accept all that Owen wrote, but if that Baptist considers his books as his teacher then he is choosing what of Owen to believe and what of Owen to dismiss.[/QUOT

8]My statement is true - we should not extract teachings from those authors.

9]Is Owen relevant today in terms of theology? Of course not.

10]No rational theologian would think otherwise. But from a historic sense, and studying Christian history, his works are relevant.

11]Some (many) of Owen's topics are relevant today insofar as they are Scripture. But his opinions are not.

12]Theology is always current because it is the study of God by the generation in question.

13]Why should a Christian be shackled to Owen when we have God's Word (which never expires)?

Were these your quotes? Or did I make these up?

When you posted this, where was your original post on this literary device as t pertains to History?
I did not post any of that. Had you quoted me there would be a link by my name (after the colon).

I am sure you used some of my words in this post, but I am not going to sort through them to see what is mine verses what is yours, and I am certainly not going to search every sentence out to see the context.

The entire post above is your words. Some may be stolen from me, but they are yours.

#96JonC, Apr 6, 2022

 

JonCModerator
Moderator

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Icon said;
That being said, are you suggesting a teacher today, or even you could not extract teaching out of books by Sinclair Ferguson, John Owen, Bavinck, Vos, Sibbes etc.
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JonC poted
My point is Christians should not be trying to extract teachings from the works of Owen, John Wesley, etc. We should be looking to Scripture.

One can extract teachings from the Book of Mormon. And, depending on your ministry, it could be a benefit to know what the Book of Mormon says. There are some things in the Book of Mormon that are true. But God did not give the Book of Mormon as our teacher.

Owen and Wesley were Christians (I was using Mormons as an illustration). And we can gain some insight of how they believed, the circumstances in which they wrote, their worldviews, etc.

But God gives teachers (real ones) to the congregations that make up a body (churches). There is a pastor (or overseer), there are teachers, and there are evangelists.

When you reply on the works of men like Owen and Wesley you are becoming your own teacher, your own mentor, your own standard.

A Christian is not a lone wolf but a member of a pack (a family, a functioning part of a body).

#17JonC, Apr 2, 2022


It is back and forth both sides of the fence.

 

JonCModerator

Show me where I said Iconoclast places Reformed writings above and beyond Scripture.

What I said was that Iconoclast has argued that my position that we are to test doctrine against what is written (the text) of Scripture rather than Reformed books is in opposition to God because God gave us Reformed books and they show us what Scripture "teaches" when "properly understood".

He holds a very dangerous and biblical position. I suspect you agree with him.
Again, what I said was that Iconoclast has argued that my position that we are to test doctrine against what is written (the text) of Scripture rather than Reformed books is in opposition to God because God gave us Reformed books and they show us what Scripture "teaches" when "properly understood".

He holds a very dangerous and biblical position. I suspect you agree with him.

But yes, Iconoclast has rejected Scripture in the way I define Scripture (the text of God's Word, "what is written"). He believes he affirms Scripture because he affirms what he thinks Scripture "teaches" when "properly understood" - God having given us Reformed books to tell us what the Bible really means.

#40JonC, Apr 2, 2022

Iconoclast DID make the claim that they were given by God to teach us Scripture properly understood.

Twisted

No. If you learned from the books then you taught yourself.

If books or authors teach them we definitely need no other teacher than God and His Word.

But God gifts teachers and He works in both the teacher and the pupil.

Too many Christians forsake the assembly....not that they are not present but that they are not functioning within that body. Christianity is not a solo event.

#65JonC, Apr 3, 2022

3 John

 

JonC,

I do like when a person takes time to clarify what they mean, as I have no desire to set a trap for a "gotcha " kind of post.

Now that being said I am trying to get you to see what we see in how you interact with us,

Many times you take what we notice about you, then try and cover it by saying it is us doing the activity,
One of the latest things is...I said you were not clarifying but doing damage control by covering up what you said....
YOU HAVE NOW TRIED TO SAY THAT IT IS i WHO DID IT,LOL
WHEN I DID GO BACK A READ THROUGH ABOUT A DOZEN POSTS i SAW EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID.

POST 86 OF THE ONE THREAD SHOWS THAT i MENTIONED INFANT BAPTISM IS NOT A REASON NOT OT READ OWEN OR FERGUSON.
The context was clear. MM asked you to [post it,the link} you did not do it at first, but you finally did.
meanwhile you started 4-5 threads trying to suggest I said or implied that reading them is a litmus test. I never did that. I said a baptist who is not willing to read, BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED INFANT BAPTISM them is defective in thought.

At one point you said...why would a baptist read owen if he has that issue wrong, then you said something about ME, MM, and canady not being baptists???

Whatever views you hold, or I hold...this made no sense to me, and both the other men asked you not to do that.

Also these new threads present a whole different idea than the original posts telling me or suggesting I was not mature enough to read these things.
My initial reactions to your posts were based on what you posted. i did not fabricate what you posted.
If you had initially said, HOLD ON....LET ME CLARIFY, that might have helped.

Moving forward i am asking that you do that rather than take this course of action.

 

"JonC,

Brother,

JonC..we should not post unless we stand by what we post.

.

There are times we are in a corporate setting under a local church teaching.
There are more times when we read our bible, or a study book, commentary, or whatever when we are doing personal study.
Both are valid

You might see it that way. Yes a teacher teaches. Now if I go sit under a teacher in person that is great. However if I listen to Steve Lawson do a thursday bible study, or a steadfast hope devotional doe sthat invalidate the teaching?
Geoff Thomas preached and taught for 50 years in His local church. They have made transcripts of his sermons and teaching, some have even been made into books.
I see no difference in the teaching, if I was there in person, or read the transcript.
I was not there for 50 years, but the teaching was still valid.

Geoff Thomas Sermon Archive
http://geoffthomas.org/index.php/sermons/

If anyone comes at me personally, I will respond directly to that issue. We all have good points and flaws.

I like to ask for clarification when I get that opportunity. When someone comes charging at me personally, I will defend. No direct charge, no need for me to go after the person.

I do

I do not mind those who disagree, just will defend when wrongly accused. If there is no wrong accusation, no need for my response.

That is okay, and to be expected