Born Again-Regeneration-Living Water-Holy Spirit

John 7 does not argue that no one was born again - it argues that the gift of the Holy Spirit "That Christ said He PROMISED" was not given until Acts 1.

Acts 1
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, ""Which,'' He said, ""you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.''
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, ""Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?''
7 He said to them, ""It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.''


This is THE Holy Spirit event we SEE happening in scripture AFTER Christ is glorified - taken to heaven after his resurrection.

John 7
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified

It points us to that special Biblical Holy Spirit EVENT that we SEE in Acts 1 AFTer Christ is glorified. And at the Acts 2 EVENT in the upper room NNE is "born again" rather they are filled with the Pentecostal power of the Holy Spirit.

Is that argument to deny that the Spirit enters at the new Birth or causes the New Birth OR are you trying to pretend that John 3 does not exist again?

 

When scripture shows us the New Birth in Ps 51 and Isaiah 55 we can believe it. For even Christ said that this work was "according to what was proclaimed in scripture".

Some people don't like to see some parts of scripture quoted... I think we all get that.

But as it turns out the Gospel ONLY works ONE way and there has only EVER been ONE Gospel in all of time. Gal 1:6-11 -- yet many "imagine two"

in Christ,

Bob

 

There is NO such text as "to be born again you must receive the water".

But there IS John 3 telling us that the new birth is OT Gospel teaching known to OT Bible scholars.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
As pertaining to "born again" Christ argues that the New Birth teaching of the OT is well known to OT Bible teachers PRE-Cross!

This is clear since as Heb 4 states "the GOSPEL was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM also"

But getting back to Christ's argument for the pre-cross OT understanding of the New Birth --


John 3:9-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

King James Version (KJV)
9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
9Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?' 10Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know!


Darby Translation (DARBY)
9Nicodemus answered and said to him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said to him, Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!


Hence we see "insight" into the teaching of the "NEW HEART" that is "CREATED" in the New Birth teaching of the OT in Ps 51 and referenced by Jeremiah as well as Heb 8. "CREATE in me a CLEAN heart and renew a right SPIRIT within me - take not Thy Holy Spirit FROM me"...

Aparently OT Bible teachers were reading Ps 51 -- hmmm imagine that!

 

Well now - we agree on something at last!

ahhh - but then you "change subject and context entirely" in a strrrrrretch that is truly entertaining.

While it is true that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of future events - Ps 51 and Isaiah 55 are not.

(And of course this still leaves you avoiding John 3 as usual).

Back to the point - the work of the Holy Spirit can easily be seen here to be REAL and living in the OT just as Christ claimed all OT teachers should know in John 3. PRE-Cross.

Ps 51:8-12 – HS working with David “realtime” just as He does with us today
Ps 51
9 Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart[/b], O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.



Is 55:1-3 Message to Isaiah’s readers -- “come to the Water and Drink” –

Isaiah 55
1 ""Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
2 ""Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance.
3 "" Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David.





1Cor 10 – they all drank of the same spiritual drink
1 Corinthians 10


1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock (Petra) was Christ.[/b]

 

Agreed from the start on that one.

I do not find him saying in John 4 that the "Holy Spirit is living water" - and I don't find him saying "someday in the future a timewill come when I will give you living water" in John 4.

I agree that your point is made in John 7. Combined with John 4 it looks pretty good.

But in Acts 1 it is pretty clear that the "promised Holy Spirit" is in fact the Pentecostal outpouring -- these are people who ALREADY believe and are ALREADY born again in Acts 1.

But the PROMISE of John 7 that is FUTURE is claimed in Acts 1 as pointing specifically to the Spiritual Gifts NOT salvation, NOT the being born again.

And that is where your argument is flawed.

The Basics of Salvation are seen to be fully effective in John 3 and in Heb 11 for OT saints -- causing both the NEW Birth and the "WATERS being drunk" in Is 66 and 1Cor 10 for OT saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Enoch is in heaven - even by Heb 11 standards.

Elijah is in heaven even pre-cross.

Too late to pretend that these are not called "giants of faith" in Heb 11 who were fully accepted by God according to Heb 11.

Furthermore they are held up as examples EVEN to the NT saints in Heb 11!!

Not only that but Heb 11 ends speaking of "what was promised" since in Romans 4 AND in Heb 11 we are told that it is the NEW Earth that is the ultimate promise for the saints just as Christ stated in Matt 5.

So even those these born-again saints were taken directly to heaven without even dying - they did not get the New Earth that Christ said the saints were to inherit.

Not until after the literal 1000 years.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit can easily be seen here to be REAL and living in the OT just as Christ claimed all OT teachers should know in John 3. PRE-Cross.

Ps 51:8-12 – HS working with David “realtime” just as He does with us today
Ps 51
9 Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart[/b], O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.



Is 55:1-3 Message to Isaiah’s readers -- “come to the Water and Drink” –

Isaiah 55
1 ""Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
2 ""Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance.
3 "" Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David.





1Cor 10 – they all drank of the same spiritual drink
1 Corinthians 10


1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock (Petra) was Christ.[/b]

 

Ps 51 is seen to be literal are realtime in DAVID's day. No possibility of spinning it any other way.

Isaiah 55 was the message Isaiah gave TO the saints of HIS day calling THEM to the water - to drink!

No possibility of spinning it any other way.

in Christ,

Bob

 

As you have already stated - the Holy Spirit WAS present in the OT and you have even admitted that he came in to people. So the John 7 text can not mean that he was not there or was not doing ministry to enter into people Pre-cross even by your own definition.

But in Acts 1 we see "the future promise of the Holy Spirit" clearly defined --


4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, ""Which,'' He said, ""you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.''
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, ""Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?''
7 He said to them, ""It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.''

 

Heb 11 points out two things --

it tells us why the OT saints are not in heaven now - why we all wait for the rapture and resurrection of the saints "to be WITH Christ".

And it also tells us that the ultimate Rom 4 and Heb 11 "promise" of a new earth (Matt 5 as well) is realized for both groups at the same time after the Millennium.

But even in that context - Enoch went to heaven pre-flood
Elijah went to heaven post-flood

And all the saints in Heb 11 are held up before all NT saints as OUR EXAMPLES in living the born-again life with Christ


in Christ,

Bob

 

Yes he was.

But i never claimed to believe the man-made tradition OSAS in OT or NT. It is denied in Ezek 18, in Matt 18, in John 15, in Romans 11 ...