Born Again

Where do you find scripture for a physical salvation?

How can your soul have salvation and it not be by the Spirit?

Why do you always have to run back to Abraham and the old phrophets to prove your point. Why do you think the old was done away with so He might establish the new?

Most important is do you believe you can have Spiritual Salvation and the soul not be "saved"?

(this is one of the scriptures you posted, I could go through them one at a time but begin to get leary when a brother has to run back to Abraham to prove his point.)

1Peter 7:
7: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Are you saying that you could fail the test and then be lost, even though you were saved at one time.

I guess I need to ask you if you believe you can lost your spiritual salvation, which is the only salvation, I am speaking of.

Why would you believe because our faith is tried it would mean a different salvation? Do you actually believe the soul can be saved and the body lost, or the spirit lost. How many salvations do you really believe in and don't you get confused when someone asks you if you are saved, or do you have to ask them "which part of me you talking about"?

I believe if you are saved spiritually that it includes the whole man. The flesh is waiting for its change which will come in the resurrection.

So, according to your Salvation statement in you "profile", You say "believe and you shall be saved".

Here you say if you believe you shall be saved but then go on to say that "soul salvation" is something else entirely, which includes faith, works and passing a test.

Here Jesus explains what it takes to be "born again" and He includes the water and the Spirit to be "born again". Now if you are born again, according to what Jesus said, then you will see the Kingdom of God. The scripture says :
Mat 5:8Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

I take from that that the pure in heart will see God and He is on His throne in Heaven. So, the pure in heart must be those who are "born again", for the born again also, will see the Kingdom of God.

Here you talk about a physical salvation of which I am not in to that when I am talking about people going to Heaven.
You also talk about the Death of Jesus, which you do say you "must believe on Jesus", of which I agree and you shall be saved. (to me this includes the whole man), but to you apparently it does not, for you go on to say:

If you stand the test of your faith being tried then you soul will receive salvation. I yet have to read where Jesus said if you believe in me you shall be saved and was not including the soul.

Here you say; to believe in the Lord Jesus as your savior is enough to be saved. Then you go on to say, well if you are believing in the present tense, you must be faithful also. Well I agree, only I would word it that if you are saved you will be faithful.

BTW, I think the OP is worded ok, I think you "must be born again, to be saved", as Jesus said to see the Kingdom of God and I gave scripture that the "pure in heart" would see God, so they must be the same, as you must be born again to see the Kingdom of God.

Do I need to answer every scripture you pasted or not? I can if you like.

 

I did not vote because the poller would do CNN proud in the lop-sided way the poll was worded. "Do you still beat your wife" or "did you quit beating your wife" would be a poll along the same lines.

The only way I would have voted in the poll with these two answers is if there was a "none of the above" or "other" answer.

Between the two, the more correct answer is "no", but the way it's worded is still not correct.

It's like the answer to the question, "Are you Calvinist or Armenian". Both are right and both are wrong in different aspects. But, the correct answer is "neither".

 

Brother Bob, I will answer your post, but first, may I ask you a question or three?

What is hell?

Is it literal or figurative?

Who is going there, and what is it based upon?

 

Brother Bob you won't read any different, because that is the message that Jesus came to preach. The salvation of the soul and the gopsel of the kingdom, which Scripture tells us is what He came preaching is talking about the same thing.

But the error is that Christendom has equated the gospel of the kingdom with eternal salvation. Jesus was not preaching a message of eternal salvation. There are a great number of reasons and ways to see this, but for some reason these two messages which do not belong combined have been combined by folks and confusion runs rampant within Christendom today.

People can't even agree on what the simple message of grace through faith apart from work is anymore. Which is TERRIBLY sad . But it all stems from a lack of rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

 

I believe hell is real and it is for the souls of the wicked to be held unto the second death.

HoG;
Keep it simple, don't paste several pages for me to answer at one time. Lets take one thing at a time, ok?

 

I actually believe that we are saved by Grace but we must have faith to be saved. The work of God Himself fixed it that way. Hence, You must believe. I do not take belief as a literal work.
I think Paul was speaking of the works of the Law, to be specific.


Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

I have to go to bed, had a long day yesterday and today. I look in the morning. nite

 

And I have surgery in the morning, so I will return in the afternoon. If I'm awake.

 

I pray your surgery goes well.

 

Exactly. Ephesians 2:8-9. But that wasn't the gospel message that was being preached at the time of Jesus. He was preaching a message of the kingdom.

 

Please explain what do you mean?
Also, if I say something that sounds mean or not right, please tell me for I don't mean to.

If the following is not about being saved from the wrath of God, I don't know what is:

John 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Sure no problem. It starts back in the OT. Abraham was given a promise that all blessing, both physical and spiritual were going to flow from his seed. Israel was created to be at the head of the nations and to rule over the earth from both the physical land as well as from the heavens. The physical kingdom was just that a physical kingdom. However the kingdom of the heavens (reference used in Matthew is always plural and always articular - for some reason always incorrectly translated kingdom of heaven), is the spiritual kingdom.

The physical kingdom was promised to Israel and one day Israel will rule at the head of the nations from the promised land.

Jesus came to the House of Israel offering them a position within the spiritual kingdom. However they rejected this offer.

But since Abraham was promised a seed that would provide spiritual blessings to the nation there was an issue. With Israel rejecting the offer Abraham no longer had a seed that would fulfill that promise.

That's where Gentiles come in. God created a new nation. A nation that was neither Jew nor Greek, but was part of the one new man in Christ. This new nation would be offered the same offer that Israel rejected, which is to have a place in the coming kingdom of Christ.

However there was still a problem. The Gentiles were a people without God. Therefore they were not in a position to entertain this offer, because they were spiritually dead and incapable of understanding spiritual matters.

Therefore Christ's death on the cross allowed Gentiles to believe (because of God's grace) to become spiritually alive. Once they were made spiritually alive (born into the family - saved - however you want to describe it) they were no in a spiritual position to entertain the offer of the kingdom.

Most of Christendom equates eternal (spiritual) salvation with the gospel of the kingdom. However they are not the same. One is to the spiritual dead in their trespasses and sin and the other is to a spiritually alive individual.

Now the promise to Abraham will be fulfilled, because Israel will rule at the head of the nations on the physical earth, while Abraham's seed, through Christ, will rule from the heavens if they qualify for that position.

Hope that helps.

 

J. Jump;
I have to go to the gymn. We are so far apart, I don't see how we could even begin to have a discussion on Salvation. Jesus said the "Kingdom is within you". I know you don't accept that and neither do the Jews today. They are still looking for the Messiah, but I tell you that the Messiah has already come. The Kingdom is already set up and to be born again, is to be born in that Kingdom.


1 Corth 15:
10: But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11: Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12: Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13: But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15: Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16: For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18: Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19: If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24: Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25: For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

This is all about the saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Those that are alive today and those who have gone on. If not, then we are still in our sins.

 

I think this thread is very telling. We can take the clear words of scripture -- of the Lord Jesus Himself -- and make them say something totally other than what He originally meant in their context and setting.

Must one be "born again" to be "saved?" YES.

Are they "synonymous?" YES.

Does salvation include within its meaning and operation by God in the heart of a person things such as regeneration, justification, positional sanctification, Holy Spirit Baptism, etc.? YES.

Argue about the order if you must -- though I think Scripture is pretty clear on that too. But the NECESSITY of the new birth is unquestionable. If one argues that the New Birth is unnecessary, they teach false doctrine.

JDale

 

I think if you read the posts on this thread very carefully, you will see that no one here is saying the New Birth is unnecessary. No one can deny the importance of the New Birth and call himself Christ's.

It is the order of things which has been discussed.

Please be very careful before you even hint that anyone is teaching falsity.

No disrespect intended.

 

Yes unfortunately we are far apart Bro. Bob. I say let's just look at what Scripture says. You bring up the idea that the kingdom is within, but when we go back to the text that's not really what it says. It says it was in their midst.

In a sense that is true, because the earth is the kingdom. However Christ is not currently exercising power. He is exercising the duties of a High Priest on the behalf of those that would accept the cleansing.

Being eternally saved is not being placed into the kingdom. There is no Scriptural support for that. Being eternally saved is about being placed in a family with the thought of one day receiving placement as a son (adoption), if we qualify.

If this statement is true then why does Peter tell saved individuals about an abundant entrance into something they are already entered into? That doesn't make sense.

 

If the same Spirit be in you that raised Christ from the dead, IT shall also quicken your mortal bodies. Our bodies must still be delivered into the Kingdom. IMO

J. Jump; Are you saying the Messiah came but because Israel would not receive Him, that He will be coming again to them?

Is that not what the Jews believe, that the Messiah is still to come, except they don't believe it is Jesus Christ?

I know that you believe its saying in the midst, but that is not what the scripture says. IMO

Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. He didn't say the Kingdom is standing right here talking to you.

I know He was answering the Pharesees, but they were Jews and some did receive Jesus as the Messiah.
Our whole beginning of the Grace Church was begun by Jews and Jesus Christ. It was later that the Gentiles were brought in. Of course, I can read where there was Gentile blood already in the Jews, especially Judah.

I have to admit, there is a lot I don't understand about the receiving of the Jews back into the fold, unless they believe that Jesus is the Christ?

This is some "deep" scripture we are discussing and I doubt if any of us will know it all in this life where we see through a glass darkly.

Do you believe there will be any "unsaved" in the Kingdom?

 

My position on born again is simply this: "Born again" or "born from above" in my soteriology is the same as "regeneration."

Regeneration is necessary for the spiritually dead to be able to respond to the demands of the Gospel. The dead is given new life, which enables the person to respond in saving faith for salvation.

 

Brother Bob yes the Messiah (King) came to Israel the first time and He was rejected by the nation as a whole. And yes He will be returning to the nation at some point in the near future. And this time He will be received. OT type would be Moses and Joseph.

Well that is certainly not what the KJV translation says, but it truly is what Scripture says. The KJV is merely a translation. Sometimes they get it right and some times they don't. Another example of an incorrect translation is kingdom of heaven. It really is the kingdom of the heavens.

I agree there are some things that we don't know, but if it is in Scripture then it is knowable. God didn't give us a book so that we could only understand part of it. The Holy Spirit can lead us into ALL Truth not just portions of it.

No. See the parable of the wedding garment.

 

Answers to some inquiries:

It may very well be that since regeneration logically happens first according to the Scripture then belief in Christ immediately follows but perhaps not necessarily.

How about John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb?

Someone asked a “what if”:

What if a believer stopped believing?

Impossible, Jesus said that they would “never perish” and therefore once the state of being of regeneration has happened to an individual it would be impossible for that one to stop believing because it is a function of regeneration which is something God has done to that one.

The believer is a passive recipient of the “new birth” and it cannot be reversed because Jesus said that they would never perish and that no one is able to pull them out of the hand of the Father.

If some one gives the appearance of believing and later quits that believing then whatever it is/was, it is/was not the "believing" which is a result of the regeneration from God.

IMO.


HankD