Born Sinful.

WHAT A MARVELOUS CLARIFIER CONTEXT IS ME2, IN THIS CASE, IT IDENTIFIES THOSE WHO ARE INCLUDED IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION. YOU REALLY SHOULD CONSIDER THE CONTEXT BEFORE YOU POST A "PROOF-TEXT" SCRIPTURE.

 

Still, while the spiritual state might be inherited, it is the actual acts of sin that they are judged for ("works"--Rev.20). People who were conceived but never lived have no sin to be condemned of. What do you think the charge brought against them in Rev.20 (White Throne Judgment) will be?

You may sin and ask for forgiveness and grow, but if you're saying that one has to live long enough to reach a certain spiritual state of growth in order to be saved, then that radically changes the Gospel.

 

EricB.,

the Gospel hasnt changed it is the wrong methodology that has been taught more than the truth. God doesnt just snap his fingers and bingo your saved!.
It is a detailed proceedure called sanctification that everyone must eventually pass through successfully.

there are most definitely stages in the process of sanctification.

babes, children, young men, and fathers.

babes and children are carnal and havent received the revelation that their spirits have been resurrected with Christ.

while young men have received this proof that their spirit has been resurrected by faith. they have overcome the power of the devil. they have by faith overcome the power of death.

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

these are those who call Jesus Christ their Lord.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

easy call here. those not calling Jesus "Lord" is highly suspect of rejecting the truth when tried. all antichrist spirits are identified when they reach a certain point in their sanctification.(between child and young man) are tried and fail because they changed the truth (Jesus is Lord) into a Lie. (they are Lord).

basic sanctification rules of thumb. we enter as carnal babes and children. wisdom held by faith is tried between chid and young man stage. antichrists are rejected. hardened as reprobates. they advertise themselves as having faith (their own faith). yet when asked of knowledge. they fail to hold truth that Jesus is Sovereign.
True conversion proof holds that the believer actually possesses the spirit of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ Within their OWN Flesh. knowledge is similar to other TRUE believers.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

dont you just love the little children comment. not young men that john is calling attention towards. but the CHILDREN "IN CHRIST". those not converting yet. they are still waiting for the revelation.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

easty call the spirit of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is within the believer. They have a completely new Spirit previously compared to the one they were born with. they have the evidence within them.

and another easy verifyable call is that the non-converted follower has rejected been hardened and are reprobates to the faith of Jesus being Lord of their Life. They confess not. they are proving themselves to be carnal by nature and not spiritual.

there are stages EricB. there is a distinct progression of training and teasting that all followers proceed through. each person is treated and taught the same. some are chosen to pass while others are chosen to fail. and the bible gives insight into this highly detailed proceedure.

God just doesnt snap his fingers.
the believers proves themselves through knowledge
and experience.


Me2

 

But this is a changed gospel, because if God doesn't snap His fingers, then salvation is not GRACE through faith, but of works; only God is cerdited with the works if He has elected you and you live long enough to complete sanctification. You can argue that that's how God works out election, but that is not what the scriptures teach. Sanctification and growth are fruits of salvation, not the means themselves. If you believe in this process salvation, why even argue on the side of Calvinism? (which normally credits God with instantaneously electing someone). Just say that God gives His light to all, and those who receive it and grow are saved.
This ignores the fact that there can be carnal Christians, and while we do not encourage anyone to be like that, still, the Bible recognizes it, without denying their salvation, and then this is what works being tried by the fire, with rewards or losses at the Judgment Seat of Christ is for. (Some forms of Calvinism are noted for often ignoring this).
You speak of the lost being "hardened" unto reprobation, but why would that be so if they were already condemned as infants until their testing period? The fact that the Bible speaks of hardening (for persistent sin and rejecting the truth) is more evidence that people do not start out preordained to damnation.

 

EricB.,

Salvation is a process. we imagine on the front end a lot of things that God should and shouldnt do. Were told by our "elders" of truth and error. again that dont mean what they teach is truth.
Even consider Lordship Salvation. The DEMAND that the follower confess Jesus is Lord upon initial alter call. this is a slowly revealed reality before the follower. not an instant idea WITHOUT EVIDENCE!

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

is this what you mean? you do know that this occurs between the carnal child and the young man stage in the followers life. It just doesnt happen instantaneously when somesome sitting in a stadium revival stands up and screams save me Jeessuuss!!!

This requires experience.

Have you noticed in hebrews 6 that this is what A CARNAL CHILD SHOULD LEARN yet their still not "saved". any antichrist worth his salt understands these doctrines...

foundation of repentance from dead works
faith towards God
doctrines of baptism
laying on of hands
resurrection of the dead
eternal judgement

Yes, EricB. followers can understand in their carnal thinking of these things yet still not recognize a resurrected spirit within them.
Which is a standard requirement of someone calling themselves saved with evidence "within them" to prove it!

Why because in hebrews 6 Paul states that these things are foundational. yet these are wisdom without revelation. without evidence proving these doctrines to the follower. They cant profess at this time that Jesus is Lord! Jesus is their identified Christ. Not lord.

Move to hebrews 6:

Heb 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

This is a description of a hardened reprobate carnal christian and the consequences of not accepting Gods truth by faith and successfully acheiving the young man stage.

this is speaking of a mature carnal christian who can not repent for it would cause them harm before their viewing public. they would be first seen as a failure or perhaps bring shame to a God who "failed?" at saving the follower, the first time.

Yes EricB., the difference between an actual true spiritual believer and a carnal christian is the required revelation that Jesus Christ is recognized and proved as Lord.

notice in 1 John. John is speaking to children about jesus being their christ. their high priest.
not lord.

do you notice the lack of the title of Lord as the discription of Jesus? these folks are being taught in a very specific order. first dying man, next christ and then lord. and this takes YEARS!

and then theres that persecution thing. carnal children are not persecuted until they have received the adequate level of defensive knowledge to withstand their perecutors..

I do not distract from Gods choice of his elect. I do give detail in the PROTRACTED process of determining who is saved with the evidence of the resurrected spirit of Christ within oneself. and all the rest.

Me2

 

So yes, a person can come to understand some things slowly, and then at one point confess Christ, and is saved. Still this says nothing about this being requred of infants or even the stillborn, who are just out of luck, because they can't understand or confess. Yes, a lot of people may shout some confession at a revival and not truly be saved. But still, this does not say how many years one must grow AFTER confession/calling on the name of the Lord before they are actually saved. That is pure works salvation! It's ironic that this would be suggested by a type of Calvinist.

That doesn't say a Christian who doesn't understand these things is not saved. Yes, an antichrist can know them, and of course, the saved should all the more know them.

You are mixing up two different things. The passage is now talking about falling away (going backwards), not not growing enough. Of course, the point is, if one neglects growing for too long, they may fall back, but it does not prove your point that you must reach a particluar point in growth to be saved, and even if a person dies before that time, they are lost, even if they may have been progressing, or if they were an infant or stillborn who couldn't even begin this process. You even call them "children", but if these are the non-elect, they were never children [of God]!
Of course, the concept of falling away is a whole other debate (whether this is loss of salvation, or loss of the truth they once were "enlightened" by; there are good arguments for both views). But this says nothing about it taking years after professing Christ to actually gain salvation. This is a bizarre view, and I wonder why others aren't jumping on it as well.

You're creating a dichotomy that does not exist. Anyone who accepts Christ as Lord also has Him as his High Priest. Anyone who accepts Him as High Priest and Messiah accepts Him as Lord. This was well understood and assumed by the writers. It is all a single package. Just because there is a debate now on "lordship salvation" (you can or cannot accept Him as one but not the other and still be saved) doesn't mean the Bible recognizes this manmade disctinction.
Meanwhile Christ elswehere questions and warns people about calling Him "Lord" and not being saved. It is not which title you accept Him under, but whether you are tuly following Him, or are faking it, or professing to follow for some wrong motive ("Jews in the Gospels "believed on Him" as Lord and Messiah thinking He was going to put down the Romans and take over the world then. When He didn't, and began talking about dying, and at the same time, saying things that could get them in trouble with the Romans if He wasn't going to conquer them, their true colors came out, and they rejected Him. They believed the wrong things about who He was, not that they didn't have time to grow in their knowledge or works. Such never really "believed" or accepted as "lord" or the true "Messiah" (God's concept, not man's concept) at all.

So are you persecuted? If not, than do you confess to not yet being saved?