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"Borrowed" or "asked for"?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by robycop3, Aug 10, 2004.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Active Member

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    Exodus 12:35, KJV
    And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they BORROWED of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:

    SAME VERSE, NKJV Now the children of Israel had done according to the word of Moses, and they had ASKED FROM the Egyptians articles of silver, articles of gold, and clothing.

    The Hebrew for "borrowed" or "asked from" here is sha'al, which has several English meanings, including borrow and ask for.

    The dictionary definition for "borrow" is to receive with the implied or expressed intention of returning the same or an equivalent. Obviously the Israelis weren't gonna return the goods the Egyptians gave them, and I believe those Egyptians knew it. They were hoping to "buy off" God from harming them further by being kind to His people.

    So...Is the KJV incorrect in saying "borrowed" ? I cannot find where borrow ever meant simply to ask for and accept something with no intent to return it.

    I have some thoughts but they're gonna wait till tomorrow, God Willing, as I hafta get up at 6 AM EDT to go to work.
     
  2. Orvie

    Orvie New Member

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    The double standard KJVOists, if the wording was switched would prob claim the NKJV taught that the Israelites planned on going back to Egypt, to return what they borrowed! a type of going back into the world. :rolleyes:
     
  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Active Member

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    So far, I cannot find where "borrow" in English has ever meant anything other than to temporarily use something with the owner's permission, with full intent of returning it, or an equivalent.
     
  4. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim New Member

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    Yea I believe borrow would be a bad choice. "ask for" is IMO better.Orvie great point. Very true.
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member

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    "borrow" is advanced revelation.

    If you would understand that then you would understand.

    HankD
     
  6. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly New Member

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    The NIV says "asked for."
    The NASB says "requested from."
    The NLT says "asked for."
    The NKJV says "asked for."

    Conclusion: the KJV is WRONG. :eek:
     
  7. GrannyGumbo

    GrannyGumbo <img src ="/Granny.gif">

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    Oh I do love that Webster's 1828:

    BOR'ROW, v.t.

    1. To take from another by request and consent, with a view to use the thing taken for a time, and return it, or if the thing taken is to be consumed or transferred in the use, then to return an equivalent in kind; as, to borrow a book, a sum of money,or a loaf of bread. It is opposed to lend.

    2. To take from another, for one's own use; to copy or select from the writings of another author; as, to borrow a passage from a printed book; to borrow a title.

    3. To take or adopt for one's own use, sentiments, principles, doctrines and the like; as, to borrow instruction.

    4. To take for use something that belongs to another; to assume, copy or imitate; as, to borrow a shape; to borrow the manners of another, or his style of writing.
     
  8. Scott J

    Scott J New Member

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    None of those definitions help you Granny.
     
  9. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    Hiya Sister Granny!

    Thank you for pointing out the truth to share with and help others to understand, even though you yourself understood/understand. You are a wonderful, kind, caring and loving sister in Christ Jesus our Lord. May he continually bless you abundantly.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Context, context, context ...

    Exodus XII.35 (KIV1611):
    And the LORD gaue the people
    fauour in the sight of the Egyptians, so
    that they lent vnto them such things
    as they reqiured: and they spoiled the
    Egyptians.


    Quite frankly the "borrow" and "lent"
    are irony. The Egyptians game them
    the stuff to get rid of the Israeli.
    The Egyptians never expected to see
    their stuff again. NOT IRONIC is
    "they spoiled the Egyptians".
    "Spoil" is that taken from others in
    warfare, not borrow/lend kind of stuff.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    GrannyGumbo said:

    Oh I do love that Webster's 1828

    Did you notice how the only one of those four definitions that had anything to do with material goods was the first, and that is the only definition that specifically says the goods were taken with the intent of returning them?

    The dictionary can't help the KJV-onlyists dodge the truth.
     
  12. natters

    natters New Member

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    Maybe GrannyGumbo means that the Israelites copied or duplicated the Egyptians treasure, without actually taking anything away from them. That's the only explanation that matches the other definitions she posted.

    :confused:
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    WEBSTER'S 1828 DICTIONARY sez:

    I'RONY, [L. ironia; Gr. a dissembler in speech.]

    A mode of speech expressing a sense contrary to that which the speaker intends to convey;

    For the Israeli to SPOIL (v36) the Egyptians,
    there has to be a lot more going on here than
    borrowing and lending. The retorical devise
    of the irony would explain the matter fully
    and simply.

    Can you believe a God with a sense of humor?
    (retorical question) YES OF COURSE YOU CAN.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Anti-Alexandrian

    Anti-Alexandrian New Member

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    Are we talkin the same kinda "borrowing" that Tischendorf did with the TCV?? :rolleyes: [​IMG]
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Active Member

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    I said last PM I had some thoughts as to when Israel paid back Egypt, so here we go:

    When God had Saul whack the Amalekites, he destroyed their large base in EGYPT, which sat squarely upon the caravan path between Egypt and Israel & her neighbors. They'd been charging a heavy toll, especially from the Egyptians, before allowing them to pass. There's no record Saul charged Egypt for performing this service.(Egypt was too weak to do this themselves, and Saul was able to accomplish it only with GOD'S help.)

    There's more than a little evidence indicating the Queen of Sheba who visited Solomon was Queen Hatshetsup of Egypt. It's known she went on an expedition to the land of "Punt", near the Red Sea. Solomon could have paid Egypt back through his gifts to her.

    This is pure conjecture on my part; I'm trying to justify the KJV reading. I'm NOT an enemy of the KJV, but ONLY an enemy of the KJVO myth, including the KJVOs' claim of perfection of the KJV, something not even the translators claimed.
     
  16. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim New Member

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    I don't understand :confused: but I do understand " [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  17. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR New Member

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    I don't understand :confused: but I do understand " [​IMG] [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]I understand if you understand the understanding of...what was I saying? [​IMG]
     
  18. Cix

    Cix New Member

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    HCSB
    Exodus 12:35

    Now the children of Israel had done according to the word of Moses, and they had asked from the Egyptians articles of silver, articles of gold, and clothing.
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member

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    I understand.

    HankD
     
  20. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    I don't understand but I do understand
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Just the same as when a child is told not to touch the burner because it is hot, and they will get hurt, and the child nod's their head yes, mommy I understand. As mommy turns away, the child touches the burner at gets burnt. That child thought they understood and said they understood, but didn't really understand.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
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