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Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Apr 9, 2004.

  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

    Apr 9, 2002
    Likes Received:
    I realize that Calvary is so very important! We have to emphasis on Calvary more often also, it relates with the new covenant.

    I think many pretrib and premill seem do not understand the finish work at the Calvary for the whole world. Because of Dispensationalism doctrine, thank to John Darby.

    During Old Testament time, God did showed them by the sacrifices and offerings, I think many O.T. saints were not understand God's plan on the sacrifice and offerings. Also, I think many O.T. saints were not realized that these things are the type or shadow of the coming Messiah. For a good example - Abraham sacrificed his own son Isaac. Isaac was a type of Jesus Christ. Isaac was the perfect example of Christ, he accepted Abraham's sacrifice with obey and humble without ask question why.

    During Old Testament period, high priests made sacrifices and offerings by slain animals include lambs too to forgive people's sins often and often. But when Jesus was on the cross, he said, "IT IS FINISHED"- John 19:30.

    I believe there are many reasons why it says, "It is finished". In the future, I will preach a sermon on "It is Finished".

    John 19:30 destroys dispensationalism and premill doctrine. Because dispensationalism doctrine makes look so complex that it teaches, that God is not yet done with Jews of Israel in the future, and to make the Body of Christ looks division or split.

    Also, I think pretribbers seem do not understand the purpose of Calvary according to John 19:30. I am sure of course that I aware of most pretribbers would saying to me, "Yes I understand what John 19:30 talk about." I respect them well.

    I realize there are MANY reasons why Jesus said, "It is finished."

    I am sure that many Christians in their mind, what John 19:30 mean to them. Many Christians believe that Calvary is the purpose for to pay all our sins through Christ's blood at once is done - Hebrews 10:10 John 19:30 is part of salvation plan.

    I read Late Dr. Curtis Hutson's sermon - "It is Finished". I agree with him. He said, Jesus is not finished, it means all prophecies of the O.T. are fulfilled through Calvary.

    But, I realize there is more than just two reasons of John 19:30.

    I notice many sacrifices and offerings use often during Old Testament period for more than 3,000 years since Adam taught Abel & Cain about the sacrifice.

    I urge many Christians ought to read the book of Hebrews in the New Testament. I believe that book of Hebrews might help many Christians understand what the purpose of Calvary.

    Heb. 10:11 - "And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins."

    During Old Testament period, many priests took sacrifices and offerings to forgive people's sins repeat and repeat for about 1,300 years since Moses' wilderness, yet these cannot take away their sins. These animals are not God, they cannot forgive their sins. But these are the shadow or type of Christ - Heb. 8:5 & Col. 2:17.

    During O.T. period, they were under the old covenant, the priests used sacrifices and offerings to forgive people's sins WHILE they were under the old covenant(testament).

    Heb. 8:5 tells us, during Moses' time, God uses things to show Moses by built the tabernacle for the shadow of heavenly things to apply Christ. During Moses' time, it was under the old covenant.

    Heb. 8:6 - "But now hath he(Christ) obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of (what??) a BETTER COVENANT, which was established upon BETTER promises."

    Christ already make a better covenant for us through what? Calvary! In Mark 14:24 - "And he said unto them, 'This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.'.

    Heb. 8:7 - "For IF that first covenant had been faultLESS, then should NO place have been sought for the second."

    Heb. 8:7 gives the good point on the covenant, it means, that old covenant have no error or fault, and it is perfect, then, we do NOT need second covenant. That mean, Christ cannot die on the cross for our sins. HUH??? But THANK God for Jesus died on the cross to put old covenant away, and to make new covenant for our sins through His perfect blood:- Salvation!

    Wihtout Calvary, NO hope!

    Before Calvary, we(Gentiles) were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and we were strangers and separate from the coveants of promises, have NO hope, and without have God - Eph. 2:12.

    BUT....Eph. 2:13-16 tell us, that we are NOW in Jesus Christ through Calvary, that He already make us reconciled to join with believing Jews together into ONE BODY of Christ. He already break the wall down between Jews and Gentiles, now make both reconcile into ONE BODY - Christ as Church.

    "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the FIGURES of the true; but into heaven itself, NOW to appear in the presence of God for us:" - Heb. 9:24.

    Understand, we do not use physical things like as we do practical daily sacrifices and offerings anymore today, because these of the O.T. things are the figures(shadows) of Jesus Christ, that He fulfilled the Old Testament through Calvary with heavenly things.

    Heb. 10:1 - "For the law having a shadow of good to come..." Christ is the shadow of the Old Testament.

    Heb. 10:4 & 11 tell us, impossible of any kinds of animals for sacrifices to remove sins away.

    Heb. 10:10 tells us, once we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for ALL. Means, Christ already sacrificed his life on the cross for our sins and forgive all our sins at once. That's why, Jesus said, "it is finished." - John 19:30.

    While I was pretrib/premill before. I learned that they teach, God have a different program plan for Israel and Church in the future. That is part of Dispensationalism doctrine. Dispensationalism teaches that the kingdom of Israel was postponed, because Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah, so, God put Israel on the shelf hold it for now while God is focus on Gentiles for the gospel and "the Church Age" till Rapture comes, then Gentile Church gones, then God takes Israel out from the shelf and to focus on Israel again during Tribulation period. Is that what the Bible actaul teaching it? None.

    Often pretrib/disp saying that posttribbers deny the distinction(separate) of Israel and the Church. That is not true. That is a mistake accuse against what posttrib really believe. I do not agree with their teaching on the distinction of Israel and the Church, because they are unbiblical. That doctrine is only 170 years old, it comes from John Darby. Many churches adopted Darby's new teaching called, 'Dispensationalism'.

    New Testament teaches the unity of the body, not dispensational divisions.

    Ephesians 2:12 tells us, that we (Gentiles) were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and we were strangers from the covenants of promises. And have no hope.

    BUT, Eph. 2:13-16 tells us, NOW we are in Christ. He already broken the wall down between Jews and Gentiles. He makes us to reconcile with Jews together into ONE BODY by through the Calvary.

    Both Jews and Gentiles are unity together Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen.

    Romans chapter 11 telling us, God does not forsake his people(Jews), but God cut them off from the tree because of their unbelief. God added Gentiles graft into the tree to share with Jews together by believe in Jesus Christ through Calvary. Romans 11:25-26 tell us, that Gentiles are now graft into, SO, all(both Jews and Gentiles) Israel are saved through the result of Calvary.

    There is no scripture saying God is now hold Jews of Israel on the shelf, focus on Gentile church - "Church Age" till Rapture comes, then God starts to focus on Jews again during Tribulation period.

    How about Jeremiah 30:7? - "Jacob's trouble"? Pretrib often saying, 'Jacob's trouble' is seven year of Tribulation period for Jews in Israel.

    Is that what Jer. 30:7 actually talk about? You have to read the context of Jeremiah chapter 29 and 30 so, you will able to understand what Jer. 30:7 is talk about. Pretrib usually pick a verse out of its context. That is against Hermenuetic rule.

    You have to look at Jer. 29:1 first. Jer. 29:1 speaks of warning from Jeremiah, the prophet that Israel shall be bring into captivity under Babylon. That was fulfilled in year, I think around 590 B.C., not sure. But, it was actual fulfilled, because the history tells us so.

    Jer. 30:7 tells us, that there was trouble in Israel - why?

    Because in that day, Babylon invaded Israel, and Jerusalem. Destroyed Solomon's Temple, and killed many Jews, many Jews were taken into captivity. That why, it called, 'Jacob's trouble'. Notice it says, 'but he shall be saved out of it'. It speaks of Israel shall be freed from the captivity.

    Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled start with captivity under Babylon - around 590 B.C. then 70 years later, they become freed from captivity in year around 520 B.C. Look Jer. 30:8-10 tell us, that they sahll be free from captivity, then return to their land again. It already fulfilled during Ezra's time.

    Anyway, I am off the topic. Let's focus on Calvary. New Testament teaches unity of the body, not divided parts.

    Romans 12:5 - "So, we, being many, are ONE BODY in Christ, and every one member one of another."

    I Corinthians 10:17 "For we being many are ONE bread, and ONE BODY, for we all partakers of that one bread."

    1 Cor. 12:12-13 "For as the body is ONE and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are ONe body; so alsois Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into ONE body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into ONE Spirit."

    Galatians 3:26 "For ye are ALL the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

    Gal. 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek(Gentile), there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor femail: for ye are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus. And IF ye be Christ's THEN are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the PROMISE."

    Right now, we are under the new covenant, there is no longer divide between Jew and Gentiles, NOW both are unity together forever and ever. Nothing else anywhere in the scripture saying God having two different groups under the present new covenant.

    Pretrib deny that 'saints' of Rev. 13:7 are the part of the Body of Christ as church. They believe that they are different group outside of the Church. Where did they get the idea come from?

    Aren't we as saints of 1 Cor. 14:33?

    Often, I hear pretribbers saying, God is not allow His Bride to be suffer. Loooook at the Early Church history. Thousands, and thousands of Christians were suffer and killed eaten by wild beasts in Colossuem, also, many were killed by Catholics during Spanish Inquistion. Are we better than them?

    Why do the Christians sufferings? Because Jesus Christ already suffer on the cross, so, therefore, we should follow Christ's example - Luke 9:23, & 1 Peter 2:21.

    IN John 16:33, Jesus tells us, that we should face tribulations, but be cheer, because Christ already overcome them. Acts 14:22 tells us, that we must go through MUCH tribulations. Because we are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4. But, we are not appoint for the wrath of God - 1 Thess. 5:9, why? Because we already received salvation through Jesus Christ by Calvary.

    Wrath is not same as tribulation.

    Tribulation is troubles, trials, persecutions, sufferings, etc. (Please see Romans 5:3-5)

    Wrath is anger, mad, fierce, punishment. Wrath is for to punish all unbelievers who reject Jesus Christ, send them to everlasting punishment - John 3:36.

    You will not find a single verse anywhere in the book of Revelation saying the wrath of God shall pour upon a saint. Why worry? Trust in the Lord.

    Now, I want to discuss on the sacrifices and offerings, it is very important matter.

    Premillennialism teaches that sacrifices and offerings shall be restoration again in Israel during 1000 years of millennial kingdom after the Second Coming.

    Because, premill uses Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 to prove that there shall have another building of the Temple, and there shall have another sacrifices and offerings again during millennial kingdom.

    Many Christians saying on Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 is the one of the most difficult area to reading than any passages in the Bible.

    (1) Remember it is a vision - Ezekiel 40:2

    (2) The one thousand years is not mentioned once in the context of Ezekiel 40 to 48.

    (3) To hold to such a hyper-literalist view on the temple would require you to believe in the restoration of the abolished sacrifices, which is absolutely senseless. The sacrifices have been done away forever through the atoning work of Calvary!!! I personal struggled with this Premill-mill doctrine while I was premill and was relived to abandon it when I became an Amillennialist.

    The meat offering - Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29; 45:15,17, 24,25; 46:5,7,11,14,15,20

    The sin offering - Ezekiel 40:39; 42:13,19,21,22,25; 44:27,29; 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25; 46:20

    The trespass offering - Ezekiel 40:39; 42:13; 44:29; 46:20

    The burnt offerings - Ezekiel 40:38, 39,42; 43:18,24,27; 44:11; 45:15,17,23,25; 46:2,4,12,13,15

    The peace offerings - Ezekiel 43:24; 45:15,17; 46:2,12

    The drink offerings - Ezekiel 45:17

    In the Premillennialist scheme of thought, numerous offerings for sin are going to be re-introduced in a suppose future millennial age, against the expressed purpose of God.

    Also, the Levitical sons of Zadok will be restored (Ezekiel 40:46; 43:19; 44:15; 48:11)

    It is fanctiful to believe that this will be restored.

    Of course the wealth of New Testament supports for spiritualising this VISION is overwhelming, whereas, support for literalising this VISION is NOTHING. Thankfully, we have now enter into the new economy - the Messianic period- and can safely intepret the old in the light of the new, not the other way around, which Premills do! The sacrifices and temple rituals are therefore abolished FOREVER!

    The temple is Christ and the water flowing from Him is spiritual living water.

    This spiritual water in the VISION rises upon the prophet of Ezk. 47:3-5:

    (1) "The waters were to the ankles" (vs. 3)
    (2) "the waters were to the knees" (vs. 4)
    (3) "the waters were to the loins" (vs. 4)
    (4) "the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over" (vs. 5)

    Also, I can see the vision of Ezekiel chapter 48 speaks of future eternality city - New Jerusalem. Notice Ezek. 48:31-35 speak of the twelve gates of the city, these are 12 tribes of Israel. It fits with Rev. 21:12-13.

    I do not see any mentioned on 'a thousand years' anywhere in the context of Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 nothing at all. No way, you can prove that Ezekiel 40 to 48 speak of future supposed millennial kingdom such as it claims, 'a thousand years'. Because Ezekiel 40-48 do not mentioned on 'a thousand years'.

    When, Jesus was on the cross, he said, "It is finished" - John 19:30. Then, He died and yield up his soul, at the same time, the veil of the temple was tear down in twain from the top to the bottom - Mark 15:37-38. To my understanding of John 19:30, - Mark 15:37-38 tell us that Jesus put all sacrifices and offerings and the temple to end, He fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament. Also, he fulfilled the Old covenant, now he already make a new coveant by through Calvary - Mark 14:24.

    Right now, no Christian are doing sacrifices and offerings like as practice rituals. We are no longer to doing it, because Christ ends them. Now, we are God's preists. Christ is our Lamb, and also He is our temple.

    Jesus said, "IT is finished!" It simple mean, no more again.

    Premill teaches that the sacrifices and offerings and the building of the temple will be restoration again in the Millennial Kingdom. Cannot they understand what Jesus said according to John 19:30??

    No verse anywhere in the New Testament saying that the sacrifices and offerings and the future building of the Temple will be restoration after the second coming of Christ.

    I do not believe in the future restoration of sacrifices and offerings after the second coming of Christ, because Jesus tells us, it is finished.

    Premill teaches that there will have mortal people on earth during millennial kingdom, they would have to sacrifice and offering to forgive their sins.

    Where in the scripture to support their teaching?

    Matt. 13:39-42; Matt. 24:39; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:7-10 teach us, that ALL unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting punishment. There shall be no mortal person to be survive to enter the eternality kingdom according to 1 Cor. 15:50.

    1 Cor. 15:51-54 tell us, that we ALL shall be change into immortality body at His coming. Immortality means no dying, perfect glorify body, also, no sin!

    Then, why shall we need another future sacrifices and offerings again after the second advent, while we all shall be perfect without sin?

    I have an illustration on the suppose future sacrifice.

    During eternality kingdom time, a person is looking for to find a spotless pure lamb anywhere outside. A person finally find a spotless lamb, then slain it and then person carry lamb to God, and ask God for for forgive sin. Then, God saying to a person, "I don't need this! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK at Jesus!!!!"

    Rev. 21:22 tells us, there shall be no need building - temple, because Jesus Christ IS the temple. We shall always worship by face to face toward Jesus Christ in person forever and ever., because He is always there all the time!! Amen.

    That's what Calvary is all about.

    Please think about it.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
  2. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Sep 16, 2002
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    I think one of the biggest heresies in the church today is that people do not want to believe that Jesus finished it all on the cross.

    It is amazing how many christians can believe that there can be Christians that are cursed. Yet as Jesus says in John 8:36 "If the Son has made you free, you shall be free indeed".

    A Christian can never be cursed, Jesus broke it all on the cross.