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Calvin Was A Man...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Aug 27, 2007.

  1. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Calvin Was A Man...

    Nice to read he wasn't a mouse, monkey, or manatee.

    Of course, some may be predestined to think otherwise.
     
  2. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    You ought to take heed, and fear, lest what you call the doctrine of men be found to the the doctrine of God, and your fighting against men, be found to be fighting against God.

    If Calvinism is the doctrine of men it will perish, or have so few adherents that it will be irrelevant. But if it be the true sense of the Scripture, then no one can overcome it, because it is just a nickname that men have ascribed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then you have been found out to be the enemy of truth.

    You have already been found out to be a railer. What next skypair?
     
  3. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Absolutely correct, sir.

    It only nominally survives in Europe, doesn't it? If it weren't for baptizing original sin from babies, Christmas, and Easter, there would likely be no gatherings. Here in America, Calvinist growth "piggybacks" on the Baptists. Most Calvinists here came to Christ by decision and then got "edumacated" in Calvinism. But look at the strictly Reform and Calvinist churches and they are dying out with the new generations not filling in for those that pass.

    I could be wrong. What is the comparative growth that tells you that Calvinism isn't dying? What are the growth statistics you work from? I've participated in many outreach programs in the Baptist church that I don't see in the Reform -- EE (I know -- except a "Presby" discovered it), children's bus ministry, "I Found It," CCC beach outreach, church invitation, etc. I'm not seeing growth in our Reform peers. Are you?

    skypair
     
  4. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    There have been in our modern times a great revival and interest in the doctrines of Grace. This has been continuing since the early 1900s and has grown exponentially over the years. Many churches have become more calvnisitic if not full blown calvnists. The desire of refromed literature, that of the Puritans, has also greatly increased worldwide. Such is the testimony of publication companies as Banner of Truth and others. And what to I mean be revival?

    A return to the necessity of being born again.

    A return to the Scriptures as the sole rule of faith and practice in the Church.

    A return to the preaching of the Scriptures expositorially in the churches.

    A return to fervency in prayer and worship in Churches.

    et.

    More could be added. Not all this is seen in churches called reformed. Influences of our modern era have greatly added to this, and I believe it the Providence of God. The church growth movement and ecumenism has greatly agitated the elect of God and they find themselves wandering in the wilderness. They have gravitated to doctrinal, fundamental churches which emphasize the importance of doctrine in the life of the church and believer. Many of them are becoming reformed so to speak.

    I have a few books that walk through this that you may find interesting. I suggest reading Iain Murry's "Evangelicalism Divided" Here is a book review:

    http://sites.silaspartners.com/CC/article/0,,PTID314526|CHID598026|CIID1562302,00.html


    With the rise of modernism in early part of the 1900s, we saw Baptists come together and set a standard. We were at that came called fundamentalists. And now that such fundamental truths have solidified in the churches, there is now a movement of going deeper into the deeper things of God. One only has to look at the SBC and the rise of the doctrines of grace in many congregations to see this. I believe you will see in the SBC a great return to these fundamental doctrines held so dealy by the founders of the SBC, but not without resistance and enemies.
     
    #124 ReformedBaptist, Sep 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2007
  5. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    I am sorry, Skypair, but what you say about Europe and the Reformed doctrines just is not true. Many, many churches and denominations that are set against those doctrines practice paedobaptism and celebrate Christmas and Easter. Reformed doctrine certainly does not depend on infant baptism, Christmas and Easter, nor does it "only nominally survive in Europe." What gave you that idea?

    As for growth in churches that hold such doctrines, it varies, as I suspect it does with all churches in these days of antipathy toward spiritual things. Some churches are already large and/or are growing, while others are small, and seeming not to grow. However, are we to trust the rightness of our doctrine by the number of people who join the church? If that were the case, I'm sure we could increase church membership many times over if, for example, we were to say that one of our doctrines was that every new church member would be given a cash reward, and qualify to be driven to church services in a stretched limo - I know that is ridiculously extreme, but I hope you get the point.
     
  6. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    The cover story on the European edition of "Time Magazine" 10 years ago. The title - "God is Dead." It bemoaned all the beautiful cathedrals empty --- except of tourists --- and recounted the dwindling numbers on church rolls in all denominations in Europe and GB.

    Well, it seemed to work for a long time (seems like it still does) for the Baptists whom I believe are "fundamental" in doctrine. I mean, seeing they are not doing what you suggest and still grow impressively every year, I'd say it is the doctrine with a little help now of the dreaded "seeked friendly" activities. I have noted that some Baptist churches actually decline a bit, as RB comments, because "seeker friendly" themes tend to turn off the real believers.

    skypair
     
  7. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    I'm gonna defer to your greater knowledge in this area. I do agree with your explanation of why the trend is upward -- the gravitation toward fundamentalist doctrine. And the "necessity of being born again" is what I consider to be the foundation of any fundamental church.

    So to you, is Reform Theology a matter of "classroom" vs. "street smarts?" "Theory" vs. "practice?" Cause some of your teaching seems out of touch with your porported practice of your faith.

    skypair
     
  8. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    Most of the "beautiful cathedrals" I know of in this country seem to be mainly tourist attractions, as you suggest. Some even charge an entry fee, except when services are taking place. The same is true of some of the more historic or ornate parish church buildings. But what is the connection between that and your assertion that Reformed doctrine only survives nominally in Europe? Historically, the Church of England was once calvinistic in doctrine - its "39 Articles of Religion" are clear on this. But for many years they have been ignored by many, maybe most Anglicans. For instance, Artcle 31 says:

    Of the one oblation of Christ finished upon the Cross
    The offering of Christ once made is the perfect redemption, propitiation, and satisfaction for all the sins of the whole world, both original and actual, and there is none other satisfaction for sin but that alone. Wherefore the sacrifices of Masses, in the which it was commonly said that the priests did offer Christ for the quick and the dead to have remission of pain or guilt, were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits.

    Yet today, and indeed since the rise of the so-called "Oxford Movement back in the early 19th century, many Anglican parish churches call their ministers "priests", address them as "Father So-and-so", refer to the Lord's Supper as the Mass, and practice confession of sins to a human "priest", just as the Roman Catholics do. That alone shows that the "articles" are largely ignored today. Also, I cannot think of a church or denomination that holds to the Reformed doctrines that would have cathedrals. The only two that have cathedrals in the UK are the Church of England and the Roman Catholics.

    Anyway, as you say that the Time article recounted the dwindling numbers on church rolls in all denominations in Europe and GB, why should you get the idea that those numbers only dwindle in Calvinistic churches?

    I agree with you that although we should warmly welcome unbelievers, "seeker-friendly" services are unbiblical (or "dreaded" to use your word).
     
  9. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Your choice of words, your demeanor, your poise, your knowledge, thanks for putting them on display for the glory of God.
     
  10. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    I kinda like this guy. :)

    Bless you David
     
  11. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Shows you that we don't have all the truth on this side of the "pond" :)
     
  12. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    uhhh....ok. Have a tulip. :flower:
     
  13. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    It was the Reformers that forces us to come over here, right? I mean, northern Europe was state-sponsored Reform of one kind or another. Now there's few either Catholics or Reform (except N. Ireland, I suppose). The only things I'm hearing of is mission churches from USA.

    skypair
     
  14. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    Sorry, Skypair, that doesn't make any sense to me at all. Perhaps my brain is having an off-day :)

    When you say, "It was the Reformers that forces us to come over here," do you mean that you think the Reformers forced the Pilgrim Fathers to leave Europe for a new home in America? If so, it doesn't make any sense, for those very Pilgrim Fathers were themselves Reformed in their doctrine, calvinistic.

    Where are there "few Catholics"? America? Europe? World-wide? A quick Google search showed me that there are between 60 and 70 million in the US (compared with about 20 million baptists), and 1.1 billion (that must be in "American billions", not 1.1 million million) RCs in the world, compared with some 42 million baptists. I could not find figures for Europe, but in England there are about 2 million Roman Catholics, compared with about a quarter of a million baptists.

    What does this mean?: "The only things I'm hearing of is mission churches from USA." What sort of churches? Baptist? Methodist? Calvinistic? Episcopal? And where are they, these mission churches from the USA, which you say are the only things you are hearing of?

    Thank you for any help you can give me to understand what you meant.
     
  15. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Have you never read a history book?
     
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