Calvinism and belief

Now, Helen, you're being too logical and making too much sense.

 

John 6.29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.




May God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

Yes, and it is a completed work of God. Completed 2000 years ago by Jesus the Son of God. What remains is man's response in belief or lack thereof to determine man's eternity!

 

Yes, and it is a completed work of God. Completed 2000 years ago by Jesus the Son of God. What remains is man's response in belief or lack thereof to determine man's eternity! </font>[/QUOTE]and it is God who is responsible for our belief, and it is your responsibility if you do not believe.
in other words it is a persons fault if a person goes to hell but it is Gods fault if a person goes to heaven. not meaning God has faults but it is Gods mercy

 

Yes, and it is a completed work of God. Completed 2000 years ago by Jesus the Son of God. What remains is man's response in belief or lack thereof to determine man's eternity! </font>[/QUOTE]and it is God who is responsible for our belief, and it is your responsibility if you do not believe.
in other words it is a persons fault if a person goes to hell but it is Gods fault if a person goes to heaven. not meaning God has faults but it is Gods mercy </font>[/QUOTE]Not true sir,
God did all the work we either accept it or reject it. God does not force anyone to accept, nor does he prevent anyone from rejecting! God established the reward for accepting and the penalty for rejecting. Yes sir, it's entirely up to you!

 

Yes, and it is a completed work of God. Completed 2000 years ago by Jesus the Son of God. What remains is man's response in belief or lack thereof to determine man's eternity! </font>[/QUOTE]But Scripture plainly says this is a work of God. Not to say that God must believe anything, but it is worked by God in the elect.

Please note, Jesus said this, not me. This should be enough to settle the question for anyone.

BTW, this is in line with other passages of scripture.

Bro. Dallas

 

Yes, and it is a completed work of God. Completed 2000 years ago by Jesus the Son of God. What remains is man's response in belief or lack thereof to determine man's eternity! </font>[/QUOTE]and it is God who is responsible for our belief, and it is your responsibility if you do not believe.
in other words it is a persons fault if a person goes to hell but it is Gods fault if a person goes to heaven. not meaning God has faults but it is Gods mercy </font>[/QUOTE]Not true sir,
God did all the work we either accept it or reject it. God does not force anyone to accept, nor does he prevent anyone from rejecting! God established the reward for accepting and the penalty for rejecting. Yes sir, it's entirely up to you! </font>[/QUOTE]Better that you would have said 'the free gift'. 'the reward' carries overtones of working for a living...etc. etc. Don't let me put words in your mouth, if you did not mean it is a reward for works performed, then please explain your meaning.

Bro. Dallas

 

Would you please post the scripture that states it exactly as you have?

 

Rom. 1:16
"for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,"

Rom. 9:16
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."


by His Grace
mike

 

Seeing as how I would never say that works are involved in man's eternal life, it appears that you are attempting to put words in my mouth. Further I would never say that man's belief is a work of anykind, belief is however a condition of man that results in the reward of eternal life, where unbelief results in the punishment of being thrown into the lake of fire.

 

True it is by the power of God that man is given everlasting life. But, for CAUSE! The Cause of Salvation of man by God is man's belief in God. That is in accordance with the plan of God. He set the stage we are the actors!

Absolutely, Salvation is of God who shows mercy, but the final judgment of man is based upon the condition of each man's faith in God.

 

Helen, something that was not discussed, and it seems that according to your original question it should have been, was the point regarding belief and when or how it takes place, in a Calvinistic understanding of the salvation event. That is, you said

It is good that you brought this up, and whether you disagree with Calvinistic/Augustinian soteriology or not, this is an issue that is key, and so a Calvinist (that is, a Christian) says that

So you are right in saying that from a Calvinist's perspective, one does not (ie possess the ability) exercise saving faith prior to their being saved, as understood temporally or logically. And really, what we are talking about here is a logical order, not so much a temporal order, for when one's stony heart is taken out, and given a heart of flesh, then one also and immediately savingly believes. You can't really separate these things temporally. I am not sure this came up in your earlier conversation, but at least from what you have started the OP with, Ransom did not have a chance to address this particular point.

So the human responsibility to believe is important, salvation would not occur without the faith response. In this case however, it is God who supplies the ability for a person to believe by so changing their will that where once they hated God, now they see, as if their eyes have been opened for the first time, the beauty of Christ and the Gospel that they had previously spurned. That is the miracle of the new birth, of being born again, or better... "born from above".

So (saving) belief would be considered a work if done without God's granting the ability to have believed in the first place. It would have been done in the flesh, and as the Bible says, the flesh profits nothing. And as Luther wryly noted, "nothing is not a little something". And savingly believing in Christ Jesus would indeed be a big something! Thus you are right, that is what the Calvinist believe the Bible teaches concerning belief and its being a work, if not given as a gift. The Calvinist is not trying to have it both ways, s/he is trying to have it the biblical way. And please, lets not forget this. The Calvinist and the Arminian both passionately believe that theirs is the biblical view. Imagine the contrary! The Calvinist wants to believe something because it is not biblical?!?!? No. We believe that man cannot pull himself up by his own bootstraps and just decide one day to savingly believe. Salvation is of the Lord, from first to last. I think the dynamic (human responsibility and divine sovereignty) is shown well in the following:

They claim that to believe before salvation is a 'work'.
Phil 2:12-13 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. NASU

Blessings

 

John Owen,

Being a Calvinist does not make one a christian! Being a Christian makes one a Christian! Please don't confuse the issue with such inane comments!

 

Helen, I should have mentioned the following comentary by the Puritans on the above passage in Phil.;


Philippians 2:13


5 For it is God which worketh in you both n to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

(5) A most sure and grounded argument against pride, because we have nothing in us praiseworthy, but it comes from the free gift of God, and is outside of us, for we do not have ability or power, so much as to will well (much less to do well), except only by the free mercy of God.

(n) The reason why we are not statues; and yet we do not will well by nature, but only because God has made of our wicked will a good will.
(from Geneva Notes)

This seems to sum it up well.....

 

Yelsew;

Don't trouble me by thinking that I must please you with what I write. You are confusing yourself with God.

 

Helen and others:

This was the last part of the Doctrines of Grace that I wrestled with before understanding the truth of Scritpure. Regeneration comes before salvation - I know most of you have heard this before (from Pastor Larry, anyway). God had to give us a new heart (of flesh) beofre we were able to believe...had to get rid of that ol' stone one that couldn't do anything good in the Lord's eyes.

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life[/I}

2 Thess 2:13-14But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:5 4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Of course Jesus also told Nicodemus He must be born again to see/understand the Kingdom.

I know those that oppose the Doctrines of Grace will hit the roof over this one but when the whole counsel of God is considered I don't see how it can be any other way.

I'm thrilled these discussions have stayed civil. We are all a part of the body of Christ and are able to discuss our differences in love and with respect.

In His Grace
KayDee

 

John Owen, Why do you ignore the biblical truth that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" Faith does not come by regeneration, regeneration comes by faith! Hearing the Word of God comes first, then faith. Faith is regeneration!

 

I personally don't care what you think Owen, it is what you post that I respond to. If you can't handle the critique, don't post!

If you can prove me wrong, feel free to do so! if you can't, accept the critique from a brother. Of course I am assuming you are a brother. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Any time someone (anyone, whosoever...etc.) receives something as a reward, that 'something' becomes the object of a service rendered, that service rendered becomes a work.

That which is eternal life is bought for the elect by Christ Jesus and it is a free gift, there is no where it is imagined by Scripture to be a reward of any kind.

where do you find salvation (eternal life) being a reward of any kind?

Kindly list that vs(s) and I may consider your point more seriously.


God bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton