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Featured Calvinism and Context ?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Sep 13, 2020.

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  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Starting with a few of the popular verses Calvinsm teaches in support of the T.U.L.I.P i thought it would help to show if they can be supported, not by the TULIP but with context. Often the 'keep reading principle ' reveals the issue with some of the 'proof texts 'Calvinists use that they believe supports reformed doctrines .
    The ' keep reading principle ' is of course as it sounds . Often a verse or passage is read in isolation to the bigger picture.
    For example Romans 9 is read without including Romans 10 and 11 .Ephesians 1 without Ephesians 2 .
    And many more like this which i hope we can discuss .
    The other hermeneutic is asking the observation questions . Like what is the Author trying to convey? who's the audience? what's the central theme ? is it past ,present or future focused ? Who , when , why and what questions .
    And finally the observation method . What does the verses say ? not what they are presumed to teach . One method I see being used often by Calvinists is 'deductive reasoning ' . An example of this would be . An 8 year old boy is seen doing 20 back flips in a row at the park therefore all 8 year old boys can do 20 back flips in a row . The observation of course should be we observe that this is not the case and that this boy is probably trained at gymnastics from a young age . This is done with the bible in that for example God opens Lydia's heart that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. This does not necessarily mean God always does this to everyone in the same way all the time. Other examples could be David numbering Israel , The drawing in John 6.44 ; Paul's conversion experience ect .

    Ok starting with 2 thes 2.13 no prizes as to how this may be used to support Calvinsm. But let's see .
    13¶But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
     
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  2. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    If you're going to start with (2 Thess. 2:13) why did you stop? What is your point concerning it in light of all that you said leading up to mentioning it?

    Quantrill
     
  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Well how do you read the verse ?
     
  4. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    This is your thread. You have explained the 'error' of Calvinism with certain verses in the Bible. You present (2 Thess. 2:13) as an example.

    So, give the example. Explain your point.

    Quantrill
     
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  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    What term would you use to describe the following reasoning:
    1. An 8 year old boy is seen doing 20 back flips in a row at the park therefore no other 8 year old boys can do 20 back flips in a row and this is a unique miraculous case.
    2. This is done with the bible in that for example God opens Lydia's heart that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
    3. This means God never does this to anyone else because every other person is ASSUMED to open or close their own heart.
    4. Any time the bible is specific, it is a unique case, and any time scripture is silent, a contrary preferred assumption is ASSUMED to be true.
    I believe this might be the famous "Argument From Silence".
     
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  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you assume we ALL have the Holy Spirit from the womb ,like John the baptist ? The same reason we don't assume we all have the same experience as Lydia ( whatever that was ) We say ' oh that's interesting what happened to her , I'll mark that down . Calvinism does the opposite . " we believe regeneration precedes faith , let's look for passages that support this idea , bam ! Lydia , perfect that fits . Next proof text please " .
     
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  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Scripture doesn't actually say that John had the Holy Spirit in the womb. Read the story carefully if you don't believe me.

    How would you or I know if the Holy Spirit caused us to jump in the womb?
    It could happen to every baby or no other baby ... there is no way to know and it is irrelevant.

    Compare that to the verses that describe God taking an active role in an act of salvation (like Saul on the road to Damascus or Lydia or the pierced hearts in Acts 2) and contrast that with the number of verses that specifically mention that God took no active part in the salvation but it was 100% a human cognitive decision. Exclude the ambiguous cases and compare the clear examples one way or the other. Then reach a conclusion to apply to the ambiguous cases.
     
  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Please, don't let me keep you from explaining your example of 2 Thess. 2:13.
     
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Right upfront. I gladly include all of Romans and all of Ephesians. Barry, all of scripture, all 66 books point to support our complete sinfulness, our justification by no merit of our own, God's limited choice of wicked humanity for redemption, man's inability to defy the authority of God and God's gift of faithful perseverance to those who believe. The whole of God's word presents this truth.
     
  10. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Its called ' cherry picking ' . Why don't you expect to see people being killed immediately for lying? it happened to a couple in the bible . There s s whole bunch of stuff happening in the Acts of the apostles that we should not assume is the case for today .
     
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    And yet anyone that ever read the bible without Augustines lenses on has always read ,God commands man to believe him . God expects man to believe. God punishes those that don't. its christianty 101 .
    Acts 17
    30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL MEN every where to repent:
    31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. This makes Calvinism ' anti Gospel '
     
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  12. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    What term would you use to describe the following reasoning:
    1. An 8 year old boy is seen doing 20 back flips in a row at the park therefore no other 8 year old boys can do 20 back flips in a row and this is a unique miraculous case.
    2. This is done with the bible in that for example God opens Lydia's heart that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
    3. This means God never does this to anyone else because every other person is ASSUMED to open or close their own heart.
    4. Any time the bible is specific, it is a unique case, and any time scripture is silent, a contrary preferred assumption is ASSUMED to be true.
    I believe this might be the famous "Argument From Silence".
     
  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    let's try one more time . We see an occurrence in the bible and we mark that down as happening to that person in that way ,careful to not make the assumption that it always happens that way in every case . Catholics make the argument from silence. " The bible doesn't say we can't pray to Mary " ect .
     
  14. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I attended that Methodist Church when I was little for a few Christmases and Easters ... It was one of the things that convinced me Bertrand Russel had a good point: "The evidence of contemporary Christian life is such that God, if he ever existed, must surely be dead."

    You may be content with the First Church of Ichabod, where 'God helps those that help themselves', but I am most certainly not. ;)
     
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    • Jesus said He chose his Apostles and they did not choose Him, right?
    • Jesus sought out the Samaritan woman at the well, she did not go looking for Him, right?
    • Jesus crossed the lake to heal a demoniac in the Decapolis region and then immediately sailed back. Jesus sought the man, the man did not seek Jesus, right?
    • In John 6, Jesus tells the grumblers to stop complaining because no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. So the Father draws people to Jesus, right?
    • In John 10 Jesus tells the unbelieving Jews that they are "not of My sheep" and that the Father gives the sheep to Him. So the Father gives believers to Jesus, right?
    • In Acts 2, a crowd of Jews are drawn by the miracle of the Holy Spirit working through 200 disciples in the upper room. Some mock that they are drunk and others are "pierced to the heart". Is it reasonable to conclude that the Father is the difference between the mockers and the pierced heart (like John 6 and John 10)?
    • Paul has his heart changed by Jesus on the road to Damascus, right?
    • Lydia has her heart opened by God to respond to the words of Paul, right?
    • In the OT, God promised to remove the Heart of Stone and replace it with a heart of flesh; to fill us with his spirit and make us want to obey his commands, right?
    So we are not really talking about "seeing one occurrence" and making assumptions that that "it happens that way in every case". We see a pattern of God seeking and God choosing and God working and God touching hearts ... and then something happens. So the irrational response is to see it happen over and over and conclude that it NEVER happens like that.

    Lydia does not stand alone. She is one of a great cloud of witnesses.
     
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  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I agree about the methodist church and I disagree with Arminianism also Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.
     
  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    You say ///
    • Jesus said He chose his Apostles and they did not choose Him, right?
    • Yes He chose them in real time .
    • Jesus sought out the Samaritan woman at the well, she did not go looking for Him, right?
    • we just read that they met at the well . Jesus can seek out people in real time . no problem .
    • Jesus crossed the lake to heal a demoniac in the Decapolis region and then immediately sailed back. Jesus sought the man, the man did not seek Jesus, right?
    • Again Jesus is God He does stuff

    • In John 6, Jesus tells the grumblers to stop complaining because no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. So the Father draws people to Jesus, right?
    • No problem the Father draws people to Jesus before the cross ,then After Jesus draws all men to him .
    • In John 10 Jesus tells the unbelieving Jews that they are "not of My sheep" and that the Father gives the sheep to Him. So the Father gives believers to Jesus, right?
    • No problem . Those that were learning of the Father ,recognised the voice of the Son .
    • In Acts 2, a crowd of Jews are drawn by the miracle of the Holy Spirit working through 200 disciples in the upper room. Some mock that they are drunk and others are "pierced to the heart". Is it reasonable to conclude that the Father is the difference between the mockers and the pierced heart (like John 6 and John 10)?
    • Jesus tells the diciples to meet and remain in a certain place and time ( pentacost) Where obviously lots of Jews would be .
    • Paul has his heart changed by Jesus on the road to Damascus, right?
    • It doesn't say he has his heart changed .
    • Lydia has her heart opened by God to respond to the words of Paul, right?
    • 14And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
    • This is what we know. The exact details are not given as to what was said or how it happened .
    • In the OT, God promised to remove the Heart of Stone and replace it with a heart of flesh; to fill us with his spirit and make us want to obey his commands, right?///
    • This is nothing to do with anybody getting saved in 2020 . This is about a future tribulation period occurrence yet future for ISRAEL . Who will be ' caused ' to walk in the laws and ordinances. We do not walk in ordinances and statutes during the Church age .
    • No where is it said for ' regeneration ' during the Church age anything about a ' stoney heart ' being replaced by fleshy heart. ( That which is flesh is flesh, that which is Spirit is Spirit , John 3 )
    • Non of this has anything to do with the 5 points of Calvinism . None of it is about an ' eternal decree ' about ' Choosing people before they exist . Everything above happens in real time .
     
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  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Since he was going to Damascus to arrest people for being Christians and arrived in Damascus ready to become a Christian ... I thought a change of heart on the road to Damascus was self-evident.
     
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  19. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Change of heart/ mind is one thing ..but given a new heart is another.
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    OK, so nothing in scripture is for us. Got it.

    • It all was written for Jews in the OT times,
    • ... or people in the First Century
    • ... or people in some distant Tribulation.

    Well, nothing for me here.
    Goodbye.
     
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