Calvinism and fatalism?

Have you ever studied what the Hebrew is behind the KJV's "I am that I am" (It's a Qal verb of hayah and I would recommend Kaiser's treatment from "Old Testament Theology" on this verse for some better understanding of what it means).

Besides, even if the KJV is right with that translation, how does it follow that God is atemporal. Does "I AM THAT I AM" inherently mean "I am atemporal?" Your point looks way too eisegetical. Given the context of Exodus 3, why would it matter to anyone that God is atemporal? The way Kaiser (and other OT scholars) interpret it makes much more sense: "I am who I will prove to be." In other words I will be here for you. He was trying to tell Moses that He will prove to be who he says He is. He is not trying to tell Him that He does not live in the "dispensation of time." Why would Moses or Pharaoh care about that?

Next you seemed to conflate a verse from Hebrews about Christ with Exodus. It does say Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever...it does not say that Jesus is atemporal. In fact, it seems to imply that Jesus endures through these times as the same Person (a temporal notion).

Next, how does it follow that Abraham knew God was able to resurrect the dead and call those things which are not as though they were that He is atemporal? You say He can do that because "He is THERE all the TIME because He is not bound by the dispensation of time" but that looks like a lot of eisegesis to me. Could He not do those things because He is God almighty (leaving His relationship to time out of it since it is not addresssed by this passage unless you have some exegesis to back up your claim)?

Next, I don't believe God's sovereignty and man's free will are opposing concepts either and I don't believe in God's atemporality.

Next, How is there a "before" (temporal word) the foundation of the world in God's atemporal existence? You say that He elects BEFORE (temporal word) the foundation of the world while at the same time claiming that He's always at the foundation of the world, and the end of the world, and everything in between always--makes no sense. I've read Ephesians many times, but I have never found a way to insert God's atemporality into my interpretation of any of its verses (kind of hard with all those temporal words anyways). This seems like more eisegesis from you.

"The entire Bible, laws of physics, with regards to omnipresence prove that the God of the Bible just IS (I AM)...where? There. When? All time?" Well, with this statement you just reinforced my last post. Guess what else is just there all the time? Every human event "past," "present," and "future" and all events are eternally fixed in your view. In your view, time is just an illusion that tricks people into thinking there is a past, present, and future when in God's reality every event is statically happening in eternity forever. The Second Person of the Trinity is both Incarnate and not Incarnate always. Christ is eternally being born, teaching, being crucified, and resurrected forever eternally always. I am eternally typing this post always and God is here too always. Whatever I do next year is happening eternally because God is there too always. The end of the age is happening eternally beccause God is there too always. God is creating the world eternally because God is there too always.

The Bible is quite clear on this huh? A day with the Lord is as a thousand years...boy that's a lot of temporal succession. What was Peter's point in saying that in context? I think he was making a point that Christ is coming back in the future and He's not slack concerning His promise. If I recall He's not discussing God's relationship to time is he or trying to explain how God does not live in the "dispensation of time?" I always thought this was a figure of speech to make his point. More eisegesis from you. But even if I grant your point here and get rid of the figure of speech and try to make it say something metaphysical, a day elapses as well as a thousand years...these are temporal concepts not atemporal ones.

Christ is the beginning and end? I know those are titles from Revelation, but you seem to read a lot more into them than the context allows. I've read Revelation, but I don't see any discussion about Jesus' relationship to time there either. But I have read in the gospels that He prayed to the Father that He have the fellowship with Him that they had together before the foundation of the world (In your view this prayer is mistaken because His divinity is there always and praying this prayer always). Didn't He also tell His disciples that He would be with them always even until the end (In your view that is a little disingenous because Christ is already at the end (or is the end in your view?) and the beginning too always). Being with them UNTIL the end is God living in the dispensation of time and we can't have that in your view. God doesn't live in time? I believe in a more robust docrine of the Incarnation than that.

You need to prove your doctrine of God and time exegetically. Stop inserting your answers to these texts with your foreign notion of God's relationship to time. If what you say is biblical exegesis shouldn't be a problem for you.

I would recommend some reading for you on the subject: "No One Like Him" by John Feinberg. He has a good discussion on these matters (as well as omnipresence which I don't think many people try to extend to God's relationship to time).

I don't understand that God does not live in the "dispensation of time" and I am curious how you know what God's terms foreknowledge, election, and predestination "really" mean being a mere man yourself since God revealed them to men with man's own language how come they cannot be regarded as existing in the realm of time like man himself?

BJ

 

On second thought, in respect to the author of the OP, Jarhed, I digress on the topic of God's atemporality since it is off topic for this thread. You needn't respond to any of my questions above.

Jarhed and Natters, I hope you take some thought on the subject of God's atemporality and apply some critical thinking to the notion. It was something I had not thought much about until a few years ago. I found Feinberg's book very helpful and I do think God's atemporality throws some nasty wrenches into the doctrine of the Incarnation.

Natters, good luck on your quest. Your problem in understanding Calvinism lies in how free will is defined. Calvinists don't mind that God has decreed the end from the beginning because we all believe that man's free choices are based on his desires and these choices are not constrained (compatibilistic free will). To answer your question on whether or not God predetermines our evil choices, well, that's the mystery of second causes I guess.

Can one say that God uses one mechanism to determine good events (for instance how He inspired the desires of the writers of Scripture to write exactly what He wanted them to write and yet they desired to write what they did) and another to determine bad ones like our sin? I suppose I look inconsistent in saying so, however, the Bible credits man's sins to his own desires not God.

Methinks it would be wise to return to my hiatus from this section of the board again...way too busy thesedays. I do like threads like these, which have become the exception of late because there has been minimal namecalling and personal attacks and actual discussion of the issues for a change.

BJ
P.S. Where's Bob Ryan?

 

Eph 1 is ALL about the dispensation of time and the explanation of how it is possible for God to elect me (before the foundation of the world). See the words "Dispensation of time" and "after that ye believed."
To reply to all your assertions would be ad-nauseum, but let me hit just the last one: The incarnation. Do you mean of Christ, the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world." How can this be? There was a place in time when this occurred, no? Well, yes, in your world and that is the separation that you fail to make, which is made quite clear by the condescension in your post. In God's REALITY (God is a Spirit and those that worship him must worship him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH) is that he does not live constrained by time. Omnipresence is equal across the time space continuim. If one can transcend the speed of light, then one transcends time...that is a mathematical fact. God is a spirit and is not bound by the time he created for your benefit and mine. You can explain away scripture after scripture if you like, but the plain sense is there, in some cases in inference, in some cases in primary meaning...but it is there. This does not prove fatalism. KNOWING the end from the beginning is not CONTROLLING the end from the beginning (fatalism).

How can anyone rationally believe that God is not omnipresent when he clearly states the opposite.

Heavenly order is different than the order of time (Is.46:9-10).

Now as to the incarnation: When did Christ become a man? Was it when he breathed the breath of life into Adam? Was it when he WALKED in the Garden of Eden? Was it on the Plains of Mamre? Was it as "Captain of the Lord's host"? Was it as Melchisedec? When was the Lamb slain, before the foundation of the world or 2000 years ago?

His ways are higher than your ways. Let God out of the time box you have put him in and embrace the God of the Bible!

Oh, and the I AM thing. Your "scholar" has some problems with context...just within the verse for crying out loud: BEFORE Abraham WAS....I AM. Abraham became. Abraham changed. Abraham died. I (ELOHIM-the self-existent one) AM (Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent)!!!!! The I AM does not have to prove or show anything. He just IS (Everywhere, all the time). He is God...not a glorified man.