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Calvinism and the origin of evil

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Mar 16, 2011.

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  1. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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  2. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Luke, can you provide scripture for this? I have never heard of this view. I find nothing in scripture that says God removed his help from Satan resulting in his rebellion.
     
  3. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    From the link in post2

     
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    This oversimplification of the analogy totally misses the point of the analogy.

    The point is that without my help Rick will fail.

    Without God's help Lucifer will fail.

    God must hold something up or it will fall.

    Falling is not possible until God stops holding it up.

    Falling is inevitable when God stops holding it up.

    If God knows this, and of course he does, then he knew that Lucifer would fall when he stopped holding him up. But what did god go ahead and do even though he knew this?

    He let him go. He removed his power of perfection and holiness inevitably resulting in the ensuing evil.

    God did not do evil.

    God simply removed his goodness just as darkness is the result of the removal of light.

    I knew Rick would fail without my help. Though I did not like that fact, and I did not like him failing to focus and get his work done on time, I predestined it for a greater purpose.

    That is what God did.

    God did not like evil. But he knew without his upholding power evil would ensue. By removing his upholding power he was the remote cause of evil. But he hates evil. Yet he has a purpose for evil.

    That purpose is that love might shine most brightly in the form of grace and mercy and that holiness might shine most brightly in the form of wrath and justice.
     
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I did answer those questions. I agreed with Edwards about such things with regard to God's active decrees versus his permissive decrees, you know, that conversation you keep avoiding because it reveals your inconsistency with Reformers you admire?

    Now, your turn. Answer the question about the motive of God, you know what, never mind...I think it is obvious to all objective readers why you would want to avoid allowing the conversation go that direction...
     
  7. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    What do you mean Lucifer will fail?

    It seems that it was with God's help, according to predestination, Lucifer failed by sinning.

    I am sorry, but in the context of this thread I do not understand what you are saying.

    Wasn't removing his goodness evil in that it set up Satan to fall and introduce evil into the world.

    How was evil a greater purpose?

    I am sorry, but to me this is extreme double-speak and condemns God to being evil. He causes evil but he is not responsible for evil.

    As I said yesterday, what kind of father would harm his child so that he could show how merciful he is in treating the child? To me this makes God a god of duplicity ... and duplicity is evil.

     
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Amy, that is because such teaching doesn't exist except in the mind of people who are desperate to hold together their man-made doctrinal system.

    It is like the flat-earthers, who because of what they could see and understand from their own limited view and knowledge, concluded that the earth MUST be flat and condemned any suggestion otherwise. Or those, like Calvin, who insisted the sun rotated around the earth and referred to those who disagreed as demonic.

    Likewise, deterministic theologians, in their limited understanding and finite view of an infinite supernatural God make unfounded speculations about what God MUST have done. All the while they use simple, finite, and linear language like "before God created he knew everything, so he MUST have determined it." But just a simple examination of such wording reveals its blatant flaws.

    1. We are talking about a timeless God where such words as "before" or "prior" carry no significance and are certainly mysterious and before full understanding for a finite mind. How can any one presume about such things? We MUST only teach what is revealed, not what our finite minds speculate MUST be true based upon our limited view and understanding.

    2. This statement, "before God created it, He knew it completely, therefore he must have determined it," negates the very use of the doctrine of "divine foreknowledge" by equating it with "divine determination," but that is NOT the language scripture has selected. If "predetermination" is meant then that word would have been selected, but the scripture uses the term "foreknowledge" for a reason. To blur the lines between those two concepts makes the language scripture chose meaningless. God foreknows somethings and he predetermines other things, period. How do I know? Because that is what scripture says. I don't pretend to understand it all and I won't speculate about things the scripture does not specifically reveal.
     
  9. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I do not know where you get this.

    Predestination has never meant any such thing in any movement in history to my knowledge.

    We are talking about the origin of evil.

    Evil is the fall. It began with the fall of Lucifer and continued with the fall of man.

    Nothing can stand without God holding it up and nothing can fall while he holds it up.

    In order for Satan to fall, God must stop holding him up.

    God knew he would fall if God stopped holding him up. Yet God stopped holding him up nonetheless.

    What does that tell you about the plan of God as it relates to evil?



    Nothing is evil if it is done for the right motive.

    Without evil there can be no grace and no mercy and no Calvary love and no Lamb receiving the praises of a multitude which no man can number forever.
    These are God's motives for decreeing that evil should be.



    Evil is NOT the greater purpose. The brightest and fullest display of love and holiness was the great purpose. There could be no grace, no mercy, no justice without sin.

    So God decreed sin so that grace and mercy, etc... could be.

    No it does not. Planning a universe so that God might display his glory to the fullest does not make God evil.

    Denying that God should display his love and holiness to the fullest is evil.

    Sin could not exist unless God had a purpose for it. His purpose is made clear in the word of God:

    But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

    But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7)
     
  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Are you going to answer those questions or continue to avoid them?
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Dawgs will be dawgs.....Now if it were bulldawgs, they would eat the bag also.....thus, no evidence till they poop.

    Just speaking from experience.....Ive got 3 of them.

    Blessings
     
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    He does not harm them to show them how merciful he is. That is silly and no one on earth has ever said any such silly thing to my knowledge.

    He predestined the existence of sin so that he might save from sin.

    Without sin there is no salvation from sin.

    Without sin there is no Calvary love.

    Without sin there is no grace and mercy.

    Without sin there is no Lamb receiving the praises of a multitude which no man can number for dying and rising from the dead to redeem and justify sinners.

    Do you think God had no purpose for evil?
     
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    1. As requested, could you provide ONE verse which in anyway indicates that Satan or Adam sinned because God stopped holding him up?

    2. HERE Sproul, a Reform scholar, argues that Adam was "able to sin" and "able to not sin," yet you seem to argue that Adam (like Satan) didn't have the ability to "not sin" because at some point "God stopped holding him up." Do you disagree then with Sproul's position?
     
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No you didn't. Prove it.

    God's motive is pure.

    Without sin there can be no grace.

    Would you rob God of the praises he will receive by a multitude of redeemed which no man can number forever?

    Because GRACE and the FULL display of God's love BY grace was his motive.

    And, why don't you be honest and admit that you do not agree with Edwards about anything or that you lack the ability to understand him?
     
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    If he had the ability to do right then it was because God gave it to him.

    Augustine declared that evil is nothing. It is the absence of good just as darkness is nothing but the absence of light.

    If evil is the absence of good and God is the source of all goodness, then in order for evil to exist God must create a void in his goodness in the place where evil is to come to be.
     
  16. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Yep, Dogs are green.....they are great recyclers. :)
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Complete garbage. Are you saying Adam and Eve did not experience God's grace pre-fall?
     
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    How does my answer not satisfy you? It is the same as Edwards and the Arminian Divines. I provided a definition of decree by which God actively decrees some things and permissively decrees (allows) other things. These questions are reflections of what God has decreed, but if it is SIN or EVIL it is done permissively not through his active agency. Can I be any more clear?

    Yes, it is, which is why his permissive decree to allow evil should not be perceived as evil. It does NOT mean as you have suggested that God actively does evil but that its not evil because it is a pure motive. He "permits, or does not hinder" sin, as Edwards states.


    I don't agree with him about many things, but he, the Arminian divines and I are all on the same page with regard to his quote regarding the origin of sin. You contradict him by NEVER acknowledging the permissive decree of God within your system. You don't leave any room for His permissive decree. You only leave room for his active determination thus making you at odds with that quote and the Arminian Divines, period. That is not an opinion. That is an established FACT. If he hadn't claimed to be in agreement with the Arminian divines you might be able to argue regarding his intent, but since he freely admitted his intent was consistent with the Arminians on this point, you have NO ground on which to stand Luke. Sorry.
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Grace is the unmerited favor of God.

    God's favor is never more unmerited than when it resides upon a wicked sinner.

    If grace did exist before the fall it paled in comparison to the grace displayed at Calvary. Do you deny it?

    And explain to me how infinite mercy can exist and be displayed apart from sin.

    Explain how redemption from sin can exist apart from sin.

    Explain how the Lamb of God receives the songs of the redeemed forever had there never been sin.
     
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Now you are backtracking. Initially you said without sin there can be no grace...now you say "if" it existed prior to the fall it pales in comparison to post fall. I completely disagree. God's grace does not need sin to exist. Creation alone is an act of grace.
     
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