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Featured Calvinism Fact Sheet #1, by Joel Barnes: Total Depravity (or Total Inability)

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Alan Gross, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Do you believe that we stand at Christ's door and knock?
    Isn't Salvation just the turn of a door handle away? The way it sounds to me you and Utilyan believe that we knock on Christ door and He opens to us, we go to Him he doesn't come to us, but Christ comes to us because we can't go to Him. Everyone throughout time hasn't had the opportunity to open the door; that's what the great commission is about because the gospel hasn't reached everyone and hadn't reached hardly anyone prior to Christ coming. Your perspective is from someone who has opened the door so in a sense your eyes are blinded to what it's like to be blind; I myself can't fathom what it's like to not believe in God, the only thing I have to go on is my dad's example. My dad had good tendencies and bad tendencies and though I myself presented him with the gospel he completely rejected it to the point that I was never to talk to him about the God of the Bible. He believed in an over arching God but not our God. I can't comprehend that blindness; but like it was given to me to open the door when Christ knocked it was not given to him; his ground hadn't been prepared, he was not good ground, he was ground full of rocks and weeds and crushed pathway dirt and the word of God just bounced off of it.
    God knows everything but we don't, so for us we feel like we have freewill; did my dad freely choose to go to hell so it's OK?
    Do do you think my dad is in hell right now going "oh yeah this is what I chose!" My dad didn't make an informed decision I can't look at him and go "oh at least you chose not to believe so it's OK" my dad was duped into believing there is no God he was blinded somehow; Or should I say he was blinded into believing that the God of the universe isn't the God of the Bible.
     
    #41 Titus Tarnum, May 3, 2021
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
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  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Our state of being sinners is unnatural.

    Sin is an abnormality, missing the mark. Your giving the Devil too much credit.
     
  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    No kidding Jesus told us to knock :

    9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

    13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    You guys would swear up and down you couldn’t ask for the Holy Spirit unless you had the Holy Spirit.

    If we are wrong for seeking first the kingdom of God what’s the alternative?

    Jesus could have taught do nothing

    I would reject your version of the gospel too so your dad is in good company. Calvinist version of the gospel is not what most Christians adhere to, probably not even most Baptist.

    We are not Gnostics for one. Secondly God is not jerk I’ve even heard he’s more understanding than I am and I wouldn’t damn him for something that silly.

    You think when Jesus said believe, he was telling people believe he exists? When they look right at him? They would have thought he’s an idiot. Believe means obeying his commands.

    John 3
    36The one who believesin the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not [m]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
     
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    you put a whole lot of words in my mouth
     
  5. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Wow, you went there and said my dad didn't believe because of my message, really? At one time we talked and you said I should call you out when you're being insensitive and I've heard a lot of your insults to people in this thread but this one is just really rude… so if I would've had a better message my father would've believed; it's the power of our message and not the power of our God which means that you can preach or not preach and someone can go to hell or not go to hell because of the way you present the gospel right? This is humanism and when you deny the depravity of man you support Pelagianism which as I understand your church has condemned… This insult is actually counter to what you said in the past; do you not believe that the power to believe is in every person so it wouldn't of mattered what I said to my dad as long as he followed his God-given conscience?

    The only reason you seek the kingdom of God is because God sought you first, well unless you're a follower of Pelagius...
    You have taken the Sermon on the Mount out of context; Who Christ is talking to here;
    Matt 6:32
    For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
    Are the same people He is talking to here;
    Matt 7:7
    “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
    There's a difference between a faithful person speaking to God, and a unsaved person coming to God, like in this verse which is the one that I was referencing;
    Revelations 3:20;
    Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
    I still love you though brother even though you tried hurt me; hopefully that's important to you.
    By the way I've never studied Calvin it's just what I've learned from studying Arminianism, and I'm not a Baptist I'm just a guest here like you.
     
    #45 Titus Tarnum, May 4, 2021
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    We don’t know that, God is the final Judge, he knows his heart and there’s plenty hope with this.

    Is it your message? Is not the power one and the same?

    Romans 1
    16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.



    If it made no difference you would not be moved by the Holy Spirit to correct me.

    I’m saying he could have understood things wrongly and may accept understood rightly. Even a good 90% or so people here probably think I don’t understand including my self when I take a sincere look of my own lack of faith.

    I don’t want you to be without hope.
     
  7. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Is this your attempt of apologizing? OK I forgive you
    FYI I was speaking rhetorically in the comments you just posted about.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    #47 Titus Tarnum, May 5, 2021
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Sorry I still have hope for your dad, who you already judged as “freely going to hell”

    did you want to debate something?

    If you think the sermon on the mount was delivered to a bunch of saved people,you should slap your English teacher’s face and get your money back.
     
  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    My point is that there is no independent capacity to please God that is apart from God.

    Cornelius did not know who Jesus was even wrongly worships Peter, yet before learning he is told by an angel :Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

    It doesn’t matter who you are. God can work with anything he wants. Even Jesus said rocks will preach the gospel if no one does.
     
  10. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Ever hopeful, that's nice
    Do I want to debate something; well this is the Calvinism Arminianism debate section...
    I don't really want to debate it because I'm the only one that thinks it but here's a question; I came to the realization that the book of life is God's record of everyone who would be created through Adam; The book of life is a record of those who would live. Calvinism says that the only names that are in the book are those people who God elected before the foundation of the world, Arminianism says that only the names of saved people go in the Book. There is nothing in the Bible saying that the book of life is a record of those people who are/will be saved but what do you think?
    As for the sermon on the mount, whether everyone there was saved or not I don't know, but it definitely was presented as if the people Jesus was talking to were faithful Jews.
    And I'm a drop out so my English teacher would not know me
     
  11. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Oh, also this; why do you think Cornelius didn't know about the God of the Bible?
     
  12. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    He worships Peter. Peter's mission is to preach the Gospel to Cornelius. Cornelius was pretty much the gentile exemplar that would be given in the council later ACTS 15 for not having a need to circumcized.

    And Peter touches on what we are discussing:

    Acts 10

    34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
    “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,


    We can't have this bigotry idea where one set of people is superior to another, God can use ANY being even the worst of us if he chooses.

    I don't think God gives you some special organ, Give it some contemplation does he even have to?

    Every good act has God sourced as the author of that Good act. Just because someone is not a Poombah, elect , chosen, christian, etc. does not mean God cannot act in their heart.
     
  14. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Seeking to understand what you think;

    The question I have here is do you think that a person is born with a good conscience (good enough for Heaven) and that it remains good throughout their lives?
    I underline your insults so that you can see that's not appropriate(I attempted to but they didn't transfer when I pasted them), but it also asks the question; why do you call Calvinism man centered; it seems the same claims you have against Calvinism I have against freewill because freewill depends upon man's ability to choose God. I am not speaking for Calvinist I am speaking for myself.
    I know you don't call your belief Arminianism but Catholic belief is similar to Arminianism when it comes to the operation of salvation in some senses.
    I believe that if God prepares your ground for the Word of God you will grow faith. Arminianism believes that God also has to prepare your ground but you choose to grow or not. I also understand that free will is dependent upon everyone being given a choice irregardless of the condition of their ground, and this choice is continual throughout their life.

    Mark 4:20
    But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

    Christ may have been thinking about Farmers or actually watching them when he coined this parable and so the picture I get is farmland that has been plowed and has had the rocks pulled up and thrown to the edges. Around the field is a hard ground packed pathway and along it's edges, as well as rocks, there are weeds because the ground hasn't been plowed and prepared there. These areas on the outskirts of the prepared ground will not grow a crop until you remove the weeds plow the ground, pull the rocks and cart them away. The more seed you throw on it doesn't make it any better or give it any better chance to grow a crop because it's not prepared. Paul planted and Apollos watered but God gives the increase by preparing a field and providing the seed, the sun and the rain. If God prepares your ground and the Word of God is provided, like a wheat field you're going to grow wheat, that is irresistible grace to me.

    We were initially made in the image of God and for God through Adam Gen 5:1 but now the image of God is tainted by disobedience and sin ( disobedience and sin are characteristic of humanity not God) If we didn't fall we would all be walking in the Garden and we would still be doing God's will, but God left our presence after the fall and the ruler of this world became Satan, and we became sinners living in Satan's domain.
    Now we depend upon God reaching to us (from His domain) if we are to escape and in the beginning in the lifetime of Enosh, son of Seth, son of Adam man started seeking God! A Calvinist might say that the people seeking God then were the elect, and I would agree because seeking God is a characteristic of the elect, but seeking God isn't enough because God has to be found when someone seeks Him. I would say the ground has already been prepared by God if someone is seeking God, which to me says God wants to be found by the seeker in their case.
    Still, from Enosh to Noah is about 1,100 years and within that timeframe humanity took a new dark turn. Humanity stopped seeking God completely, no one was righteous (not a single one) any more and their thoughts were continually evil. We don't know how long God suffered humanity this way but it's possible that this went on for hundreds of years until Noah the shining beacon of faith in God. If anyone could boast of their faith it would be Noah because, wherever he got it from, it literally saved humanity, but humanity is still just descendants from Adam and we aren't good enough for Heaven so we still needed to be rescued. Then came Abraham the father of faith! Why is Abraham called that if everyone has faith? God decided that through Abraham's faith we would be adopted into his son Jesus; that's a bit exclusive isn't it? Then Moses was God's tool to extricate the Israelites from Egypt. Why did that have to happen if everyone had faith then the Egyptians should've welcomed God's people. Then there was Joshua and the land of Canaan, David and the enemies of God all around Israel; I don't see faith in these other nations they are God's enemies and are destroyed like the wicked people in the flood. The biblical record doesn't support your idea of a universal good conscience in everyone. Your eternal optimism in humanity is highlighted by you not even knowing my dad and saying " he might have been saved" but it isn't biblical to water down God's justice.

    God made a way through the body of Jesus Christ and when you become part of His body you are literally adopted, so you no longer are the descendants of Adam and you've become a child of Christ, a new creation in Him! All the patriarchs and all the prophets and all the faithful people of the Jewish nation knew about Christ and were waiting for Him because He is the only way! If you lived in a nation that didn't know Jesus Christ you would have to become a Jewish proselyte to be in God's kingdom. When Jesus came the Jews had to transition from Moses to Jesus or they would be left behind; broken off branches from the vine of Christ, because if you didn't have faith in Jesus you didn't have faith in God. God is very exclusive when it comes to faith being specifically in Him; the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament.

    I think you believe that your conscience is God's preparation in your life and since everyone has one, everyone has the gospel, and I'm not expecting what I just talked about will convince you otherwise, but it's nice to say it to someone



    Am I no different now that I'm saved compared to an unsaved person; I can't boast in it but I can tell you that God has changed me and his Holy Spirit in me makes me a better person. That's not being self-centered that's just being changed by God.

    And where you believe a Calvinist is self-centered and superior I believe someone with free will is superior in their mind because they don't acknowledge God's total sovereignty in the salvation process. The way I see it Arminianism says God brings you to a point of choice and through your faith you choose grace. Since you are saved by grace through faith that makes this person responsible for a portion of their salvation if this faith comes from yourself, except I believe that though we have inherent faith given to us by Adam it has to be changed to saving faith given to us by God as well as grace. I base this off of Hebrews 11:1 which says faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. To me that means God has to reveal himself to you spiritually for your faith to change to a godly faith.
     
    #54 Titus Tarnum, May 6, 2021 at 8:33 PM
    Last edited: May 6, 2021 at 8:54 PM
  15. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    believing isn't enough you have to have faith and faith has to be given to you by God.


    Giving you my personal story would be giving you a subjective story; that's why I gave you the story of the Bible above instead.

    I believe that God gave me the faith that pleases Him, I don't know what Calvinist think but I bet you they don't like being called stupid…
    You say that sin is unnatural and I agree with you, it's unnatural to the original state of humanity, but it's still part of humanity that Christ has to deal with now.

    All of God's creation WAS naturally good, and when God left walking about His creation things changed, and when Christ rules for 1000 years things will change back to a Garden state.

    I don't think you give the devil any credit even though he is the ruler of this world. If it wasn't for the devil God could've saved a lot more people.

    I'll say it again like I said it before; I give up my will and want God's will in my life. My will separated from God's will is sin. God never gave us permission to sin, only permission to be obedient. God didn't say if you want to sin you can but they'll be consequences He said don't sin, it's not allowed and they'll be consequences if you do. Capacity to sin isn't permission to sin.

    I've worked on this all day and you'll probably pick it to pieces but I love you anyways brother
    I think about you often, and pray for your welfare!
     
    #55 Titus Tarnum, May 6, 2021 at 8:35 PM
    Last edited: May 6, 2021 at 8:58 PM
  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    We gonna go in circles Tate, If SIN is part of Human NATURE, Then Jesus has a SIN NATURE, else he is NOT HUMAN.

    Nature points to God's CREATION. If you want to say its all a mess, all broke, all corrupt now, There is better ways of saying that. One WRONG way of saying it is that it is our nature. Satan is not another God in Nature.
     
  17. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Also, so I can fulfill my role as an "EOPO" (Equal opportunity pisser offer)
    This one person said that some of humanity was prepared for destruction before the foundation of the world in so many words so what he meant was their primary function was to fail and that succeeded, instead of saying that their primary function was to worship God and that failed.
    He also said that if God wanted to He could snap his fingers and Satan and all the demons would be gone but because God uses him he keeps him around, and that bothers me. There's a difference between God knowing what will happen and planning accordingly and God knowing what will happen and wanting it.
    God can't get rid of Satan because if He did He would be a liar so He just can't snap His fingers. God has already said in Revelations what will happen to Satan at the end and for that matter if God says what the end is He knows what the middle is, and if God said that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world He knew what was going to happen up to Christ crucifixion so God knows the whole plan and predicted it. If it's predicted then God won't change that plan. If God knew about me before the foundation of the world that would never change, that means that my parents had to be born and no one in their wickedness could've destroyed them.
    If God knew that I would have children before the foundation of the world I can't change that with my freewill; My decision to have children or not have children would be irrelevant to God seeing how He knows what will happen, but it is relevant to me because I don't know.
    Concerning Job you may consider that what God did with him was God using Satan and I would have to agree. I believe God's ultimate plan though was to shame Satan and to have glory for Himself in the process.
    God knew Satan knew about Job and that's why he had a hedge around him in the first place. God had to lift His hedge and then He put it back after Satan did his deeds otherwise Satan would love to have destroyed Job. That shows God not using Satan but preventing Satan, if God was using Satan all He'd have to do is say leave Job alone, and He wouldn't of had to put a hedge around him. God my have welcomed Satan's ploys but I can't agree with God actually wanting Satan around.
    Ultimately Satan was cast out of Heaven forever.

    This person I was talking to said Revelation 3:5 doesn't actually say or imply that Christ will or could blot someone's name out of the book of life but it was said rhetorically and Christ was actually saying "don't worry I know you're thinking you might have your name blotted out of the book of life but I will never do that" so Christ was encouraging them and not warning them, and I thought that I was such a weak explanation of that verse in an attempt to defend that only elect people have their names in the book before the foundation of the world. What I told him was that everyone's name is in the Book (because everyone has misinterpreted the Book as a book of salvation and not a book of creation) which means people who have their name blotted from it may never have come to the point of adoption into the body of Christ and remain in the body of Adam, ultimately people like this have to have there name blotted from the book because they no longer are a creation of God (through Adam) but become through time a creation or a child of Satan, the ruler of this world.
    No one believes this of course and it would take a miracle of God for anyone to agree with me on this; oh well, Maranatha!
     
  18. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    You're a Catholic and you're supposing if a human could be sinful then Jesus also could be sinful because of His humanity?
    Certainly you know of the virgin birth; if natural man wasn't sinful there wouldn't be a need for a virgin birth; this actually proves the sinful nature of a humanity…
     
    #58 Titus Tarnum, May 7, 2021 at 8:07 AM
    Last edited: May 7, 2021 at 8:15 AM
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