Calvinism in Soul-Winning

RB : You claim to be able to say to anyone ( without qualification or mental reservation ) that God loves everyone -- just not in the same way .

Does God love on a sliding scale ? Is there grade-A LOVE , grade-B Love , and grade-c love ? I do not think that different gradations of God's love is biblical .

You do not believe that God has eternal hatred for some ?

BW : Technically ( not "techinally" ) , the Lord has loved , loves and shall continue to love His elect ones -- all tenses can be applied .

 

The Lord has a special love for His people, the elect, no question. But I see in Scripture a general love, care, and kindness for all mankind, for the good and the evil. To me for theologians to have defined a common grace and a special grace is the same thing. God causes the sun to shine on the just and unjust, and makes his rain to fall upon the wicked and the righteous. These are gifts and blessings shared by all mankind, not to leave out food, clothing, children, marriage, et.

So yes, there is a general love God has for everyone. But His special love is for His people.

 

I have long disagreed with the term "Common Grace" . There is no salvific aspect to God's general benevolence to a wide swath of people . He sends sun and rain to the Elect and reprobate alike -- but it is only temporal . For the reprobate -- the Lord is fattenening them up for their eventual slaughter ( eternal misery ) .

So , I guess you do in-fact believe in degrees of love which God has for everyone . What sort of love did He have for Esau ?

 

While your position is unorthodox for a reformed position, as I believe Rippon's is the norm...let me ask you this: Why would God not offer salvation to someone He "loves"?

 

Your wrong. My position is orthodox and Rippons is not, as he admitted to rejecting the concept of common grace.

But I am sure anything you can get your hands on to cast Reformed Theology in a bad light will work for you.

 

The representation you make of God "fattening them up" is gross to me and contrary to what I know of Reformed Theology. You have gone off into your own world on this one Rippon.

God's love for Esau was common. His rejectin of Esau had nothing to do with Esau, but of God's purpose and will. You present to me a very dark view of God in how you write. I find it neither in Scripture or my personal knowledge of my Saviour.

 

I see the vitriolic attitude is beginning to get ahold of you too. What a shame...:tear: I'm sick of the ad hominems on this board.

I believe you are wrong. MANY calvinists like to quote "jacob I loved, Esau I hated" as proof text that God loves some and hates others unconditionally. Your position is in the minority.

You never did answer the question. Please answer it. Why would God not offer His grace to someone He loves?

 

So you deny taking an opportunity to take a stab at Reformed Theology. That's refreshing to hear. As for the vitriolic (a sulfate of any of various metals) attitude you are mistaken as to my emotions. How you can infallibly know them is beyond me. But the change you see is I am taking a firmer stance now, and will, on these boards against anticalvinism and anti-calvinists. I see the hint of anticalvinism in how you write sometimes webdog. It is unessary for one who disagrees with the doctrines of grace to have to take a hostile stance against them. You can see a non-hostile attitude in Allen, while his stance against certain points of the 5 points are clear.

You replied to me that I was wrong about Reformed Theology, but made no disctinction between Common and Special Grace. So you haven't really address the issue at all.

I saw in your reply an ad hom. I am glad I was mistaken. BUt I see you are still trying to press it to your advantage?

Now, what obligation to you suppose I am under to answer your question? If you ask nicely I might.

 

Webdog, care to take a vote? I'm with RB on this. Rippon's view of no common grace is in the minority among Calvinists.

 

Thanks Andy. I am about to share some evidence of this, which takes my reply to you (webdog) completely out of the realm of an ad hom.

 

First off, you are taking God's hate for Esau out of context. Mal:1:3: And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Nowhere in Genesis does God imply any hate for Esau. The love/hate language is not a comparative love, rather it speaks of love as choosing Jacob for intimate fellowship, and hate for not choosing Esau for intimate fellowship with God in the redemtive sense. Read this:Ro:9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Ro:9:7: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro:9:8: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Ro:9:9: For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Ro:9:10: And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Ro:9:11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
Ro:9:12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Ro:9:13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Compare this with what Jesus says to the potential disciple when jesus said:Lu:14:25: And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Lu:14:26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Hate becomes easy to understand when not taken out of context. Jesus means here that total devotion to Him must seem like you hate your family in comparison to love for Jesus.

 

Either state the ad hominem I supplied...or retract it. Also, please show how my post was hostile in any way...or retract that.

The fact remains your position is in the minority. I would venture to guess the majority of calvinists on this board do not believe God loves every human to have ever existed. I think I will start another thread with that very question and a poll.

I have to ask you somethin "nice" for you to answer a question? What besides "please" from my second post can I do to be "nicer"?

Fact is this is a debate forum. You feel your position is correct, and my view of theology is false. I feel the opposite. If this means now you are going to have a nasty attitude here on the BB for this very reason, brother you either need thicker skin, or you should do as many of us do and take a step back for a little while. The dialogue between you and one other non cal (skypair) shouldn't rub off on every non cal discussion. If it is going to in the future, tell me now, and I will avoid responding to anything you post in the future. My posting style is straight to the point, that's why they are not very long in most instances. I'm not on the debate forum for fuzzy feelings. I can go to the fellowship forum for that.

I will ask this again for the third time as nicely as I can..."pretty please with sugar on top...why would God not offer His grace and salvation to people He loves"? This is not a "hostile question" or attitute, so I would expect the same from you.

 

God loves everyone. We are enimies before we are reconciled to Him:Ro:5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. And this verse clearly speaks of His love for us before We were saved:1Jo:4:7: Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo:4:8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo:4:9: In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo:4:10: Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Where do you see in the bible where He loves only the chosen, or those He draws to Himself? On the contrary the bible speaks more of God's longsuffering towards sinners. jellico.

 

You're preaching to the choir, brother I'm not a calvinist. My question was posed to a calvinist to try to gauge how...if God loves every man, and desires that none perish and all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) why He would withold His grace from those He supposedly loves. IMO, for all 5 points to stand together, He wouldn't be able to love every man. TULIP is a house of cards that stands and falls together. You can't have one supposed five pointer believing God love everyone...while another supposed five pointer believing God doesn't love everyone. It's like oil in water.

 

Emphasis TCG.

That emphasis, my friend, is your strawman. You put him together and you must deal with him. But hardly a true representation of what the issue really is.

 

...then elaborate what point is not needed for the other 4 to stand on.

 

I haven't read anyone else's answer but here is mine.

Calvinism fits with soulwinning by recognizing that any hope of salvation ultimately rests on God's regenerative prerogative. As someone has said, Far from being a demotivator to evangelism, Calvinism is the reason for evangelism. If God is not supernaturally opening minds, giving spiritual understanding, and spiritual life, then evangelism is pointless.

I present the gospel this way:
God -- He created this world; created you; controls the world, and one day will judge the world and you.
Man -- you were created in God's image but are spiritually dead, with no relationship with God because of sin.
Christ -- Christ is God, who came into this world to be everything you should have been and to die as a substitute in your place.
Response -- You must turn in faith and repentance to Christ alone for salvation.

Along the way, each conversation develops differently, but those are the key points. Of course, I back them up with Scripture.

 

Prove I made one or please stop up these "commands" of yours they are ing me out.

Gee, Reformed Theology is now defined because webdog says so and he polled a largely non-calvinist discussion board. ooooooooook.

You seem to be demanding I answer you questions. Please correct me if I am wrong.

There is no nasty attidude in me but what you believe I have.

Not a chance.

I will both defend and teach/preach the doctrines of grace. You do what seems best to you in the sight of God and men.

So is this your way of saying, "Hey, if I slap you in the face, get over it?"

God's commandment to repent and believe the Gospel is universal.

 

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, I didn't realize your question was loaded with your theology.

 

Your statement already assumes the worse of that which you are asking me to elaborate on, so you must rephrase your statement.